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Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Hello all,

I wanted to know what Atheists think about outstanding religious figures like Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Are there any atheist resources (articles, audio, video, ...) about people like him?

Thanks.

Liberalism was opposed to the Church, and Marxism was anti-religious, but not Adolph Hitler. Hitler Opposed Secularism and Atheism; there are many quotes by Hitler against secularism and atheism.

By reading the true world history it can be found what lead to the crisis in 1933. The reality is that organized anti-Semitism as an official state ideology and legal policy never existed in world history until the fourth century AD, when the Christian Church became the official religion of the Roman Empire. At this time a reign of totalitarian terror was unleashed against all other competing religions that had little precedent in world history. Bishop Ambrose, the patron of St. Augustine and the dominant force in the late Roman Imperial Church in his day, who even openly endorsed the burning down of synagogues. Pope Innocent III, not Hitler, originated the concept of forcing Jews to identify themselves by wearing the Star of David. It is very important to see the deep roots of anti-Semitism in Christian history. It would be very convenient if the guilt for the Holocaust could be pinned on one people, the Germans, or one political party, the National Socialist Party. There probably were an undisclosed/unknown amount of atheists killed also. Regarding atheism, Hitler specifically opposed it. The horrors in the Holy Land were followed by a tidal wave of atrocities and mass murders all across Europe culminating in the expulsion of all Jews from England and France and most Jews from Germany. The reason Poland ended up with so many Jews is that it was the only European country that had the sanity and the courage to serve as a refuge for the Jews fleeing other parts of Europe. It is important to note that the demand for the persecution of Jews and other religions came from the church - not the Roman Empire.

The Romanovs, unlike Hitler, never planned to kill all the Jews. However, they did not hesitate to commit or encourage the most diabolical crimes, and the Russian secret police created one of the greatest hoaxes in history, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which became one the key justifications for Hitler's war on the Jews.

The most famous Christian of the 20th century was Adolf Hitler. Hitler's morality: He did not smoke or drink and he abhorred pornography and homosexuality. Hitler's call for his nation to repent. "Providence withdrew its protection and our people fell… And in this hour we sink to our knees and beseech our almighty God that He may bless us, that He may give us the strength to carry on the struggle for the freedom, the future, the honor, and the peace of our people. So help us God" - March 1936.

Hitler's stand against secularism: "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith" - April 1933. Hitler's war on atheism: "We were convinced that the people need and require the Christian faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out" - October 1933. Hitler's blending of church and state: "National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours; alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life. These are Christian principles" - August 1934. Hitler's faith-based charity: "With a tenth of our budget for religion, we would thus have a Church devoted to the State and of unshakable loyalty" - January 1939.

Hitler's God-given mission to cleanse Germany of evil as personified by the Jews, liberals, homosexuals, labor leaders, homeless people, immigrants from inferior cultures, and the weak and sick. "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." And, "We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press, in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess" March 1936.

Hitler's patriotism and the belief that his nation's weakness was because "the watchword of German foreign policy ceased to be: preservation of the German nation by all methods; but rather: preservation of world peace by all means."

Hitler vows to end terrorism: "we must not dodge this struggle, but prepare for it, and for this reason acquire armament which alone offers protection against violence. Terror is not broken by the mind, but by terror."

Hitler's devotion to the Ten Commandments, which he proclaimed the foundation of Nazi Germany: "The Ten Commandments are a code of living to which there's no refutation. These precepts correspond to irrefutable needs of the human soul."

Hitler warriorship for the Lord: "I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people to be allowed to wage this battle for Germany." "I follow the path assigned to me by Providence, there is a God, and this God again has blessed our efforts during the past 13 years" - February 1940.

Over the years Christians have argued that Hitler was an atheist, a hard claim to defend. Never mind that he repeatedly attacked atheism, he never said anything to indicate he was an atheist. From what those who knew him later in life said, Hitler was a theist, viewing God as a somewhat distant figure, though not wholly removed from human affairs; after all, the S.S., Hitler's elite soldiers and personal bodyguards, wore belt buckles that read, "Gott Mit Uns" or "God Is With Us."

Hitler's personal library: More than 130 books, included in a small portion of Hitler's collection stored at the Library of Congress, deal with spiritual topics. Hitler was particularly taken with devotional books and works on Jesus. Titles included "On Prayer," "Sunday Meditations," "A Primer for Religious Questions Large and Small," and "Large Truths About Mankind, the World, and God." He also owned a translation of E. Stanley Jones' 1931 bestseller, "The Christ of the Mount," and a 500-page book on the life and teachings of Jesus called "The Son: The Evangelical Sources and Pronouncements of Jesus of Nazareth in Their Original Form and With the Jewish Influences."

These were books Hitler collected from the 1920s until his final years, and they weren't just for show. Many of them were well read and contain margin notes in Hitler's writing. Ironically, in a book entitled "The Words of Christ," there's a pencil line alongside this passage: ""You should love God, your Lord, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your spirit: this is the foremost and greatest commandment. Another is equally important: Love your neighbor as you would love yourself."

A book on the trinity by Maximilian Reidel also captured Hitler's imagination. He read it carefully and made extensive marginalia in it. He heavily underlined one passage that he later worked into a talk he gave to guests in December of 1941, when he said, "If there is a God, then he gives us not only life but also consciousness and awareness. If I live my life according to my God-given insights, then I cannot go wrong, and even if I do, I know I have acted in good faith."

Hitler definitely brought out the worst in Christians. Those who admired the Fuhrer were either mindless sheep or, like him, wolves in sheep's clothing, hiding their decidedly un-Christian personas behind the hypocritical mask of organized religion. Lest anyone doubt that it could have happened here in the United States, the following excerpt, from an article written by Lloyd Allen, professor of church history and spiritual formation at the McAfee School of Theology is a chilling reminder that the basic tenets of Nazism were not the sole property of the Germans. "I came to this conclusion (the Baptists' reluctance to speak out on larger issues of the world's economic, social and political scene) while writing an article on the Baptist World Alliance congress in Berlin in 1934. An immense Nazi flag, hung where the congress met, was a vivid reminder of the bloody purge executed only a few weeks before by anti-Semitic fascists. "Most of the BWA delegates spoke out for soul liberty, the kinship of all humanity and the separation of church and state, but too many Baptist leaders did not. Indeed, a number of U.S. Baptists wrote sympathetically of Hitler's Germany. "John Sampey, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary cautioned against hasty judgment of a leader (Hitler) who had stopped German women from smoking cigarettes and wearing red lipstick in public. "The Watchman-Examiner (a national Baptist newspaper) carried a letter by Boston pastor John Bradbury. Of the congress he wrote, "It was a great relief to be in a country where salacious sex literature cannot be sold; where putrid motion pictures and gangster films cannot be shown." "Southern Baptist Convention President M.E. Dodd of Louisiana defended Hitler's persecution of the Jews, who he declared were guilty of "self-aggrandizement to the injury of the German people. Besides, Dodd continued, most of the 200,000 Jewish refugees who went to Germany from Eastern Europe 'were communist agitators against the government.'" And you didn't have to go all the way to Berlin to find Nazi Christian Americans congregating. German Bunds in America offered adult training, youth camps and propaganda distribution activities, taking orders directly from the Fatherland. There were the Hitler-inspired Silver Shirts, organized by William Dudley Pelley in North Carolina in the 1930s, and the Defenders of the Christian Faith, an organization founded by Reverend Gerald B. Winrod, a virulent anti-Semite who in the best KKK tradition organized the Knights of the White Camellia. It was standing room only on The American Christian Nazi bandwagon, whose overflow of passengers included the Black Legion; the Sentinels of the Republic; the American Vigilante Intelligence Federation; Father Charles E. Coughlin's infamous Christian Front; and the America First Committee, dedicated to the Democratic principles of isolationism, pacifism and anti-Semitism. (After the war, it was revealed that "America's Firsters" had accepted financial support from Germany.) Nevertheless, the once vibrant churches of Europe are now largely deserted, at least in part because of Hitler's excesses in the name of Jesus. And it's not just ancient history: as we speak, the Christian Right is busy demolishing our civil and religious liberties in the name of America and Christ. A word to the wise: it can happen here.

Hitler's quotes from his speeches, which are dated by month and year, or "Mein Kampf." Robert Flynn author of "Growing Up a Sullen Baptist" and "Slouching Toward Zion."

Great answer Linda! No wonder Mr. Truth has gone on a rampage trying to sink this.

I see, so your point is that from Hitler's point of view people like Bonhoeffer were actually bad Christians (because they drew a fake picture of an all-loving god and forgiving god). Then - if we expand this 'true Christian' logic even further - it was right that people like Bonhoeffer were sent to concentration camps for punishment because they deliberately misinterpreted the bible?

This is the basic problem with any religion. Anybody can interpret it as it pleases him/her in a given situation and declare an other interpretation as blasphemy. How convenient.

Still if Bonhoeffer's ideology is not Christianity then what is it? And how do atheists think about his ideology - let's call it "Bonhoefferism"? Would it be a good ideology to base your life on or does it need optimization?

No, you seem to be missing the point. I don't think Hitler had a problem with anyone's Christian religion. Hitler put all kinds of people in prison if they threatened his political power. Hitler was a Christian who believed that he was doing gods will.

Hitler said, "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the ATHEISTIC movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933.

Atheists were among the first to protest Hitler's policies while the majority of Christians were following Hitler. When Hitler gained power, he had freethought organisations banned and launched campaigns to stamp out 'godlessness'. It was the freethinkers, secular Jews, intellectuals and scientist that fled Germany first. America got a lot of these great talents in the 30's and is why we surged ahead of the rest of the world in many areas.

What does that make you think about the atheists? What do you think about all of those atheists that Hitler put to death?

I think that weather someone is Christian or atheist has very little to do with being totally evil or totally crazy.

The hatred toward the Jews does have some basis in Christian doctrine and tradition. Hitler did seem to be under the delusion that god wanted him to do what he was doing. And there seems to have been many Christians who thought that his position of authority, and what he was telling them about what god was giving him the power and instructions to do, was entirely reasonable.

I think that there is no relationship between ethics and religious dogma. Having religious belief does not make you a better, more moral or a kinder person than those of us without them. Some people are hypocrites no matter what.

Wrong is wrong no matter who tells you to do it. And if it's not rational don't believe it, and for sure don't do it. Just because an "inspiration" appeals to a lot of people doesn't mean it's right.

Thanks for your answer, Linda!

Hitler committed suicide. Suicide is a sin. If he truly was a Christian he would know that by committing suicide he would be going straight to hell. Hitler is an atheist (like most politicians) posing as a religious person in order to win favor from the people.

On a side note, let's take a careful look at politicians.

I believe that 95% of politicians desire power, fame and recognition BEFORE the desire to make a difference. I believe most corrupt politicians are atheists, but these atheists know that in order to win the vote they must first win the religious vote. Why? Because most people in the USA are religious, most people wonder where they go when they die.

If 95% of the USA was atheist, politicians would say they are atheist. Why? Because they will do anything to get the power, fame and recognition.

If you were this corrupt politician what would you do? If I was a corrupt politician I would pose as a Christian since the US is a predominantly Christian country. Wouldn't you? You'd have to be strategic.

A corrupt politician (atheist) does not fear the Lord. He only desires power, fame and recognition to suit his greed. But in order to get the power he has to find common ground with the people who he needs to vote for him.

There are more atheists in the US than you think, because if everyone was truly following the Lord things would be much much better. There would be no abortion, no divorce, no adultery, no porn, no prostitution, no gambling, no crime, etc. The family would be intact.

On a final note, us Americans are a very strategic people. We know how to put on a social mask but then do what we secretly desire in the background. Many say they're Christian but are they really with all the dysfunction going on?

Mr. "Truth"-in-spin,

*** Hitler committed suicide. Suicide is a sin. If he truly was a Christian he would know that by committing suicide he would be going straight to hell. Hitler is an atheist (like most politicians) posing as a religious person in order to win favor from the people. ***

Didn't Jesus wash away everyone's sins with his lovely blood? Isn't belief in Jesus enough for a ticket to heaven? It seems to me that Christians love to say that their enemies are in hell, their friends are in heaven, and extract as much money out of those who can be kept in suspense on the issue. This is just spin for morons.

*** There are more atheists in the US than you think, because if everyone was truly following the Lord things would be much much better. There would be no abortion, no divorce, no adultery, no porn, no prostitution, no gambling, no crime, etc. The family would be intact. ***

I understand that you have no interest in facts or learning anything (because you think ignorance is a virtue), but you should read that study I posted before:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Atheist countries have the least crime and the least social ills. Atheists are underrepresented in prisons. The citizens of secular countries are more likely to be very happy, etc.

If you believed the crap you were peddling, I would think you would avoid bearing false witness. You have to lie because you know your religion is crap. Us atheists have known that for a long time. Who exactly are you trying to fool here?

You and Jonathan make such great salesmen for Christianity. (That was a joke, in case you didn't get it.)

**** Don Baker said, Didn't Jesus wash away everyone's sins with his lovely blood? *****

You can't with suicide. And you can't exploit loop holes. God knows your heart. We did not make ourselves nor did our parents make themselves. Our bodies don't belong to us. We cannot take our own life because we haven't proven who our bodies belong to.

**** Isn't belief in Jesus enough for a ticket to heaven? ****

Yes but if you exploit it or try to take advantage of God's grace don't you think God will know your heart? God knew what was in Hitler's heart and on top of that Hitler committed the sin of suicide. His pride and ego (qualities of an atheist) were more important than any type of belief in the Lord.

**** Don Baker said,It seems to me that Christians love to say that their enemies are in hell, their friends are in heaven, and extract as much money out of those who can be kept in suspense on the issue. This is just spin for morons. *****

Well in the case of Hitler I think he is humanities enemy. As for wanting my friends in heaven, don't you? We all have special people in our lives who have passed away. The small voice inside all of our heads say "what if".

You're right that there are corrupt religious figures who are trying to steal peoples money. But it's almost as if you are assuming every church is guilty of this.

**** I understand that you have no interest in facts or learning anything (because you think ignorance is a virtue), but you should read that study I posted before: *****

Interesting read until: "When the theory of biological evolution removed the need for a supernatural creator concerns immediately arose over the societal implications of widespread abandonment of faith (Desmond and Moore; Numbers)."

It should say: "When humanity found objective evidence for Abiogenesis concerns immediately arose over the societal implications of widespread abandonment of faith..........." Until there is objective evidence for abiogenesis everyone should be believing in God with all they've got. I'd be a fool to let doubt rule my life to the grave.

Evolution does not explain our origins, it is A THEORY that explains the process of how we may of mutated from small organisms to where we are now. Theistic evolution makes for a stronger case for believing in God.

**** Atheist countries have the least crime and the least social ills. Atheists are underrepresented in prisons. The citizens of secular countries are more likely to be very happy, etc. ****

People in prison sit there thinking about what they've done wrong, they need forgiveness and something to hold onto. A lot of those inmates reform and they need Gods help. Let them face societies punishment of being jailed but experience God's forgiveness for their own personal salvation.

This is a quick google: Yemen has the lowest crime rate in the world per capita. Religion in Yemen consists primarily of two principal Islamic religious groups: 55% of the population are Sunni and 42% are Shi'a. Bottom line, they fear the Lord.

HOWEVER, a counter argument could be Yemen doesn't have a melting pot of different cultures either (which causes conflict).

The United States is a melting pot of different cultures. If you look at atheist countries with low crime you will also see a low population of immigrants.

In the US we have people from every culture/race trying to compete and live in this country. That compounds problems ten fold, but I'm proud to say the United States has overcome one of the biggest obstacles in the world. Racism. Despite problems in our society no other country has dealt with racism and still been #1 as we are.

Sweden has problems with immigrants committing crime. http://www.thelocal.se/2683/20051214/

It's a complex problem that isn't entirely surrounded by religion or atheism. It is about different cultures trying to co-exist. The United States has overcome this obstacle. We are the only country in the world with such a huge melting pot of cultures yet we still maintain a respectably low crime rate (not that low but pretty darn good for what we're dealing with).

Fear of the Lord is the best way to keep society intact. And no fear of the Lord isn't man made. Once we see that us humans aren't different from each other, the fear of the Lord will then unite us.

***** If you believed the crap you were peddling, I would think you would avoid bearing false witness. You have to lie because you know your religion is crap. Us atheists have known that for a long time. Who exactly are you trying to fool here? *****

It's not crap. But it can be exploited.

**** You and Jonathan make such great salesmen for Christianity. (That was a joke, in case you didn't get it.) ****

I don't want money. I don't even want you to admit that i'm right in anyway on these forums. In private I just want you to make peace with God and know that you shouldn't let mans negative actions make you not believe in God.

Btw: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html .. I'm going to study this article over the next week. But it seems to want to say that atheist societies flourish when these atheist societies don't even have a lot of immigrants.

Just so you know, I deny the existence of the "holy spirit", as well as the existence of any god. According to that genocide manual you call your holy book, I'm destined for hell. All of that is ridiculous nonsense, of course, but even according to your own fantasies, I'm "lost".

Frankly, I think you're lost, too, to reason. You have all these elaborate stories about your god, but you don't have the slightest thread of evidence that such a god exits. "Yes but if you exploit it or try to take advantage of the fairies' happy nature don't you think the fairies will know your heart? They can read your emotions, you know. They knew what was in Hitler's heart and on top of that Hitler committed the fairy-affront of suicide." See how silly it sounds?

You mention immigrants a few times. Don't tell me you're part of that mob that want's to blame immigrants for the ills of every society. This movement reminds me very much of Hitler convincing the morons in his country that their problems were due to the Jews. Gullibility is not a virtue, as you might think.

Your comments about evolution are based on an "argument from incredulity". Look it up. According to most Christians, if something is not known by science, they rush in to claim it's god. The role for gods has been getting smaller and smaller every year. When has a religion ever made a scientific prediction that came true? How many 747s did Jesus make? He thought the smallest seed was a mustard seed. Nobody involved with the Bible even had the slightest clue that the mother of a child contributes at least half to the child. Does your church have a lightning rod? Christian leaders used to claim that they were interfering with their god's will. Now, every church has one. I can go on and on here.

***You're right that there are corrupt religious figures who are trying to steal peoples money. But it's almost as if you are assuming every church is guilty of this.***

The sects of Christianity claim absolute morality from a single divine author. They can't even agree what it is. They claim to be made by this creator, that it is involved in their daily lives, that they WANT to follow the creator's wishes, that the creator can talk to them at any time, etc. If all of this complete and utter nonsense is true, then why is Christianity so corrupt? Why doesn't it get the right answer 99.999% of the time? In reality it gets the right answer LESS OFTEN than secular institutions. What good is your god? (Answer: Stupid people believing in stupid religions do stupid things.)

Please don't make any more wild claims about your god any more on these forums until you provide some evidence that such a god exists. You're mostly just wasting everyone's time.

**** Don Baker unfortunately said, Just so you know, I deny the existence of the "holy spirit", as well as the existence of any god. According to that genocide manual you call your holy book, I'm destined for hell. All of that is ridiculous nonsense, of course, but even according to your own fantasies, I'm "lost" ****

This is a reflection of your personality. Close minded, prideful, egotistical, and in the absence of objective evidence for abiogenesis you wager your own doom because you won't do one simple thing that no one even has to know about. You are rebelling against me, instead of trying to understand the underlying meaning of my words. You are a child. I embrace everything you say and accept it as fact but realize YOU HAVE NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION NOR ABIOGENESIS.

**** Don Baker said, Frankly, I think you're lost, too, to reason. You have all these elaborate stories about your god, but you don't have the slightest thread of evidence that such a god exits. "Yes but if you exploit it or try to take advantage of the fairies' happy nature don't you think the fairies will know your heart? They can read your emotions, you know. They knew what was in Hitler's heart and on top of that Hitler committed the fairy-affront of suicide." See how silly it sounds? ****

Mocking and arrogance go hand in hand. More and more I'm learning that atheism is actually a personality disorder. You need to sit back and reflect on your own personality.

But I used to be like you. It took me 7 years to understand what I'm trying to tell you hehe. It's like i'm arguing with myself from the past.

Don't deny the Holy Spirit. It makes you look real stupid when you don't even have objective evidence for all the theories of doubt you let rule your life.

BEHOLD THE TRUTH.

"I'm Don Baker, I have no objective evidence for any of the theories I believe in. I'm going to let doubt rule my life and I won't even consider the possibility of a creator because i'm one sided, close minded, egotistical and have a problem with too much pride. I understand that mutation is a process and now for some reason I don't have to believe in God anymore. Even though I can choose to believe in God without anyone knowing I STILL don't do it because I have a personality disorder. I put up this website, how bad would it make me look if I actually tried to see someone elses point of view who believes in God?"

I had another thought on this. Isn't it awfully convenient for Christianity that our best estimate is that Hitler killed himself? What if Eva Braun, who was with him, snapped and killed Hitler before killing herself? What if Hitler escaped to Venezuela and died of old age? He would then go to heaven, according to your religion--he was a believer and, for all we know, he asked for forgiveness of his sins. Wouldn't it be great if Hitler made it to heaven?

You and Hitler would spend eternity together enjoying the wails and moans of all those Jews being tortured in hell, many of whom he killed, and many of whom Christianity systematically killed over the centuries. If you believe that famous Christian apologist, C. S. Lewis, you'd even be having "trans-sex" with Hitler while enjoying your sadistic eternal reward.

Too bad Hitler won't be there with you as you bask in God's glory.

http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/08/greatest-sin.html

**** Don Baker said, You mention immigrants a few times. Don't tell me you're part of that mob that want's to blame immigrants for the ills of every society. This movement reminds me very much of Hitler convincing the morons in his country that their problems were due to the Jews. Gullibility is not a virtue, as you might think. ****

No, anytime one culture moves to another country they will have tough times. That's just how it goes. I'm not blaming anyone. Societies that mix cultures just need time to adapt to each other and in the case of the USA we're doing very well. Every other country in the world looks at the US in awe of how we have such a mixed society and we're #1.

**** Your comments about evolution are based on an "argument from incredulity". Look it up. According to most Christians, if something is not known by science, they rush in to claim it's god. ****

Until there is objective evidence for Abiogenesis it will always always be God did it. The more you study programmatic code the more it will reveal the programmer.

**** The role for gods has been getting smaller and smaller every year. When has a religion ever made a scientific prediction that came true? How many 747s did Jesus make? He thought the smallest seed was a mustard seed. Nobody involved with the Bible even had the slightest clue that the mother of a child contributes at least half to the child. Does your church have a lightning rod? Christian leaders used to claim that they were interfering with their god's will. Now, every church has one. I can go on and on here. ****

Unlike you I will actually admit that the mustard seed is a doubt for me. There are many translations of this verse and I'm not sure which one is correct. I'm not an evangelical (although I'd like to be I can't).

On a side note, God is not going to help us make 747's we have to do that for ourselves. God is not going to help us cure HIV we have to do that for ourselves. Every problem we must face ourselves. If God came down and did everything for us and taught us the science behind everything we would not grow as humans.

**** The sects of Christianity claim absolute morality from a single divine author. They can't even agree what it is. They claim to be made by this creator, that it is involved in their daily lives, that they WANT to follow the creator's wishes, that the creator can talk to them at any time, etc. If all of this complete and utter nonsense is true, then why is Christianity so corrupt? ****

Because man is corrupt. It's in our nature to be capable of both good and evil.

**** Why doesn't it get the right answer 99.999% of the time? In reality it gets the right answer LESS OFTEN than secular institutions. What good is your god? (Answer: Stupid people believing in stupid religions do stupid things.) ****

Imperfect rules for imperfect beings (us).

***** Please don't make any more wild claims about your god any more on these forums until you provide some evidence that such a god exists. You're mostly just wasting everyone's time. ****

Then realize this. You have no objective evidence for abiogenesis or evolution. Evolution does not explain our origins, it only tries to explain a process. Doubt is your ruler.

You want me to stop posting here?

**** Until there is objective evidence for Abiogenesis it will always always be God did it. The more you study programmatic code the more it will reveal the programmer. ****

You apparently looked up the argument from incredulity since you're still using it. Perhaps you missed the part about it being a logical flaw.

Your (or anyone's) lack of knowledge about X is not evidence FOR Y. It's as if you're claiming that you have no idea how a toaster works, so it must be run by fairies. The toaster's operation (in your mind) is quite compatible with the behavior of fairies.

Bow down to the all mighty fairies, Mr. T. Pull down your pants, apply butter liberally, and grab your ankles. Repeat this mantra: "I am an unworthy toaster user. Only the fairies understand the toaster. I am a wretch who will never understand. Please accept my show of humility so that I may have by breakfast toast." When someone comes to your door claiming to be a representative of the fairies, repeat the ritual. Once he has given you an injection of fairy juice, give him all your money. If you don't, you will burn forever in the transcendent toaster in the sky!

Christianity is an equally transparent con.

I've explained to Jonathan on other threads that Christianity only has logical fallacies, mind games, and emotional manipulation. You are good at the logical fallacies and mind games. You're a relative amateur at emotional manipulation. Are you sure you're a proper Christian?

There has been quite a lot of evidence in the last few years concerning abiogenesis. They have shown self-assembly of RNA from naturally produced components, self-replicating RNA, and various mechanisms by which cells may have formed. They don't tend to cover these things in church bulletins, however. There is more objective evidence for abiogenesis than for anything supernatural. If you have such evidence, maybe you can claim James Randi's one million dollar prize.

I'm just curious; do you also believe in your heart (or otherwise claim to know) that the earth is flat? I understand they're also good at ignoring evidence.

*** On a side note, God is not going to help us make 747's we have to do that for ourselves. God is not going to help us cure HIV we have to do that for ourselves. Every problem we must face ourselves. If God came down and did everything for us and taught us the science behind everything we would not grow as humans. ***

God does *nothing*. What god does is completely explained by god being non-existent. The rest is just mind games and spin. Christians know that God can't create human beings, which is the reason why they systematically work to control human reproduction. The religion needs more sycophant tithers. If your god existed, he could make is own.

In the next paragraph, you claim that god has no responsibilities. Flip a coin: heads: God wins. Tails: man loses. This is just a con game.

Mr. T explaining why Christianity is corrupt: *** Because man is corrupt. It's in our nature to be capable of both good and evil. ***

You apparently acknowledge that Christianity with its Bible, God, prayer, and all its magic trappings are *UNABLE* to do net good.

From an atheist's perspective, humans have potential to harm each-other. You don't need a cast of characters with flowing beards or horns to act out dramas to explain it.

**** Why doesn't it get the right answer 99.999% of the time? In reality it gets the right answer LESS OFTEN than secular institutions. What good is your god? (Answer: Stupid people believing in stupid religions do stupid things.) ****

M. T explaining why followers of god screw up so often: *** Imperfect rules for imperfect beings (us). ****

Heads: God wins. Tails: Man loses. More mind games. "Nothing" does exactly the same work as your god and has the same responsibilities. Why don't you worship "nothing"? It would be far more honest.

***** Please don't make any more wild claims about your god any more on these forums until you provide some evidence that such a god exists. You're mostly just wasting everyone's time. ****

*** Then realize this. You have no objective evidence for abiogenesis or evolution. Evolution does not explain our origins, it only tries to explain a process. Doubt is your ruler. ***

Seriously? You're lying about evidence in order to make a flawed argument (from incredulity). Jonathan did that too, and he claims to be 14 years old who's only religious education is from his minister (con artist) father. You are about at that level of reasoning.

The argument from incredulity is also known as the "argument from ignorance". You do understand that religions cultivate ignorance. The con artists that run them love it when people like you spread it around. Those same con artists make money from the ignorant. How much do you tithe a year? What have you gotten besides lies, logical fallacies, and emotional manipulation? If I were you, I'd ask for my money back.

Doubt is a good thing. It keeps you from burning witches, screwing up stem cell research, and keeps con artists poor.

*** You want me to stop posting here? ***

I'm just trying to get you to turn up the brightness. I wouldn't want to give you any fodder for a Christian persecution fantasy.

---------------

I'm answering the other thread here.

*** First off, if Hitler was in front of me I would not be able to hold back and I would deal with him in a very violent matter. Man would deal with Hitler in such a harsh way if he was "captured". He would face man's justice in addition to God's justice (if that is what God wanted, I can't speak for God).

Fascinating. So you would have personally prevent Hitler from killing himself, which would greatly increase his chances of going to heaven? He was a believer, and according to the Protestant version of Christianity, he would go to heaven.

*** Ok now to answer the "tough part". Hitler's relationship with God is between Him and God. The relationship between me & hitler is my fist in his face. ***

***First let's remember Hitler committed suicide. But to answer your hypothetical scenario let's say he repented before he died and he meant it. That is between him & God. I can't speak for God.***

Either you know what god will do with people or you don't. Earlier, you claimed you were sure Hitler is in hell. Now you're back-pedaling. This is just more spin = mind games. I pointed out that your own Bible states unequivocally that I will be in hell. I'm surprised you're still interacting with atheists as we're likely to keep you from heaven. It's all just bullshit and you seem to know it. You go to church every Sunday to get your weekly dose of rationalization that you personally won't burn in hell. The religion is based on keeping people like you in suspense, so they can extract more money out of you.

**** You and Hitler would spend eternity together enjoying the wails and moans of all those Jews being tortured in hell, many of whom he killed, and many of whom Christianity systematically killed over the centuries. If you believe that famous Christian apologist, C. S. Lewis, you'd even be having "trans-sex" with Hitler while enjoying your sadistic eternal reward. ****

*** This issue of transsex is that of union. You've gone into uncharted territory. I shouldn't answer questions like these without a few weeks of deep thought behind it. ***

You avoided my point. It's my understanding that Christians believe they will be in eternal bliss while they look down into hell and enjoy the suffering of those there. I'm trying to point out that Christianity is fundamentally sadistic, if you follow the tenets to their logical conclusion. The fact that one of the most famous apologists made wild claims about transsex renders the whole thing completely ridiculous. Wouldn't you agree? I wonder how many people are Christian just for the sadism angle. That whole "Left Behind" stuff is just sociopathology. (Snuff porn.) Christians seem to love it, given the number of books sold. The "Passion of the Christ" movie seems to be mostly sadistic, too. If Jesus was a god, he didn't suffer. I don't think I've ever seen a Christian shed a tear over the millions of people they've killed and tortured. Their role, apparently, is entertainment in heaven.

Even if Hitler isn't in heaven, you'll still have Torquemada and Martin Luther to have trans-sex with while you enjoy the screams of Jews and infidels.

*** You are confusing this "transsex" whatever you want to call it with "lust" and "intercourse". Sex is the closest two beings can get to each other and that is multiplied when it's out of pure love (waiting until marriage).

*** I hope that I will have union with the Lord but not in a human body sexual way, this is not what C.S. Lewis was saying. ***

C. S. Lewis was saying it was so much better than earthly sex that earthly sex paled in comparison. Whatever it is, it doesn't admit to empathy of the suffering of those in hell. There is no empathy in heaven. Apparently, empathy is evil. In heaven, you will be fully a sadist.

*** On a side note, a good person will see someone's good intention and will not dissect his words to make him look bad. ***

*** But a person with bad intentions will dissect someones words to suit their agenda and make a person look bad to earn respect for their case. In your case atheists are the minority so you have to come on strong to get attention drawn to yourself.***

I'm pointing out the logical conclusion of three commonly professed Christian beliefs: 1) God's justice is good; 2) You will have knowledge of heaven and hell in the afterlife; and 3) you will be in orgasmic bliss / transsex / playing a harp and singing with Jesus / whatever silly thing you all believe, but you won't be feeling any pain about those that are screaming in agony.

Did you hear about the Christian church where the minister recently started preaching that there was no hell? His membership all left. Christians seem to really need it. If there is no hell, then what's the point of Christianity?

***** Don quoting Emmons: "The happiness of the elect will consist in part of witnessing the torments of the damned in hell, among whom may be their own children, parents, husbands, wives and friends; ... but instead of taking the part of their miserable being, they will say 'Amen!', 'Hallelujah!', 'Praise the Lord!'." (Rev. Nathaniel Emmons / 1745-1840)However ****

Mr. T on the Emmons quote: "I don't know what it is, but I'm very good at understanding underlying meaning. By saying amen, hallelujah, praise the lord you are giving praise to God for his will being done. If God's will is to put people in Hell who were too stupid not to believe in Him then how is that my fault? The Lords will be done."

Amen brother. Kill them all and let God sort them out.

*** Now let's talk about the POWER of free will. Is free will too much for you? Too powerful? Do you feel the responsibility is too great? You can choose to go to heaven or hell. The choice is yours. It's such an easy choice to make yet some refuse to give the right answer. In your heart you want to go to Heaven, your body tells you this yet your mind with its free will rejects it because of your pride and ego. ***

I use my power to try to educate people who believe in nonsense that they cannot shirk their responsibility for that belief. I don't make very much progress because I can't compete with snuff porn.

I speak out against the child molesters, thugs, and people who refuse to take responsibility for their unjustified beliefs. Christians seem to be happy to sell out their fellow human beings in order to curry favor with some invisible sky pixie.

I find the idea of Christian heaven part-and-parcel of a con game. I find its sadistic implications extremely distasteful. It is perhaps one of the most harmful ideas ever invented. No, I don't want to go there. I think you and the other believers (Muslims included) are morons for buying that crap. I want all believers to take full responsibility for the harm their beliefs cause.

*** Ask me if i want to burn in a fire. I will say "no". Done. It's such an easy answer. God's grace is that easy to have. Just say "yes i want God's grace in my life". Boom done. Simple. You don't even have to give any money away and no one has to know (well maybe one other person). That's it and you can STILL continue to pursue objective evidence for abiogenesis and evolution. ***

The threat of hell is a Christian extortion racket. Guess what? There is no hell. That's the good news of atheism. You don't have to play along with the racket. You don't have to be conned. You don't have to give up your precious time and energy supporting corrupt organizations.

I find it ironic that Christians think that atheists are jerks when it's the Christians who belief that their "loving" god will gleefully torture atheists in their fantasy of hell (which the Christians get into, as well). I don't think YOU should be tortured. My religion (or lack thereof) doesn't have a torture device as its primary symbol. I don't threaten Christians with torture when they come to my door to do the same to me. Atheists don't burn Christians at the stake. We don't fly airplanes into buildings to kill infidels.

There's more evidence for evolution in a single cell of your index finger than there is in all of the religions for the god you claim exists (for which there is no evidence). If you'd like to explore that evidence, try taking a freshman-level college biology course, read some journals, or read the articles on talkorigins.org. Again, what is known or not known about evolution and biology is not evidence FOR the supernatural. Evolution has invalidated that children's' story of Adam and Eve. It has invalidated the concept of original sin. It has invalidated the whole reason for Jesus to exist. It has turned your favorite crucifixion mythology into a twisted gory performance art piece: god killing himself to appease himself for mistakenly breaking the rules he made up. It has exposed Christianity as just marketing torture for tithes. I can certainly understand why religious leaders, who are unable to make an honest day's work, HATE evolution. It cuts into their con game and the income they get from it.

You're too happy to help them meet their financial needs. Again, how much money do you give to the church each week? You're paying people to lie to you. By contrast, I have no conflict of interest. I make no money from promoting critical thinking and its logical conclusion: there is no reason to believe in gods.

*** I had another thought on this. Isn't it awfully convenient for Christianity that our best estimate is that Hitler killed himself? ****

Yes. But now you are going into "tough answer" territory.

**** What if Eva Braun, who was with him, snapped and killed Hitler before killing herself? What if Hitler escaped to Venezuela and died of old age? He would then go to heaven, according to your religion--he was a believer and, for all we know, he asked for forgiveness of his sins. Wouldn't it be great if Hitler made it to heaven? *****

First off, if Hitler was in front of me I would not be able to hold back and I would deal with him in a very violent matter. Man would deal with Hitler in such a harsh way if he was "captured". He would face man's justice in addition to God's justice (if that is what God wanted, I can't speak for God).

Ok now to answer the "tough part". Hitler's relationship with God is between Him and God. The relationship between me & hitler is my fist in his face.

**** You and Hitler would spend eternity together enjoying the wails and moans of all those Jews being tortured in hell, many of whom he killed, and many of whom Christianity systematically killed over the centuries. If you believe that famous Christian apologist, C. S. Lewis, you'd even be having "trans-sex" with Hitler while enjoying your sadistic eternal reward. ****

First let's remember Hitler committed suicide. But to answer your hypothetical scenario let's say he repented before he died and he meant it. That is between him & God. I can't speak for God.

This issue of transsex is that of union. You've gone into uncharted territory. I shouldn't answer questions like these without a few weeks of deep thought behind it.

**** Too bad Hitler won't be there with you as you bask in God's glory. ****

hehe what?

*** http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/08/greatest-sin.html ***

That's the same webpage I googled.

Are you telling me you don't understand C.S. Lewis's argument?

You are confusing this "transsex" whatever you want to call it with "lust" and "intercourse". Sex is the closest two beings can get to each other and that is multiplied when it's out of pure love (waiting until marriage).

I hope that I will have union with the Lord but not in a human body sexual way, this is not what C.S. Lewis was saying.

On a side note, a good person will see someone's good intention and will not dissect his words to make him look bad.

But a person with bad intentions will dissect someones words to suit their agenda and make a person look bad to earn respect for their case. In your case atheists are the minority so you have to come on strong to get attention drawn to yourself.

***** "The happiness of the elect will consist in part of witnessing the torments of the damned in hell, among whom may be their own children, parents, husbands, wives and friends; ... but instead of taking the part of their miserable being, they will say 'Amen!', 'Hallelujah!', 'Praise the Lord!'." (Rev. Nathaniel Emmons / 1745-1840)However ****

I don't know what it is, but I'm very good at understanding underlying meaning. By saying amen, hallelujah, praise the lord you are giving praise to God for his will being done. If God's will is to put people in Hell who were too stupid to not believe in Him then how is that my fault? The Lords will be done.

Now let's talk about the POWER of free will. Is free will too much for you? Too powerful? Do you feel the responsibility is too great? You can choose to go to heaven or hell. The choice is yours. It's such an easy choice to make yet some refuse to give the right answer. In your heart you want to go to Heaven, your body tells you this yet your mind with its free will rejects it because of your pride and ego.

Ask me if i want to burn in a fire. I will say "no". Done. It's such an easy answer. God's grace is that easy to have. Just say "yes i want God's grace in my life". Boom done. Simple. You don't even have to give any money away and no one has to know (well maybe one other person). That's it and you can STILL continue to pursue objective evidence for abiogenesis and evolution.

It's called balance, something I strongly urge you to strive for.

Mr. T.,

I don't think your answers can be used to discern the reality of anything since you don't seem to know the difference in fantasy and something with a basis in fact. Your "thoughts" are not facts. No, really your fantasies are not what historical facts are based on, and it's not how you learn anything. There is a big difference between a fact-based thesis and fairy tales. I mean, I don't know where you get any of the crazy things that you believe.

How about giving some corroborating data that backs up your opinions, because without any information from historical documents, you don't have any evidence for your reasoning. Nobody needs to hear your opinion on any subject when you don't have one single fact of the matter.

What did Adolf Hitler think about atheism? Hitler said: "By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values." The truth "what is that"? IT IS A DOCUMENTED FACT. Hitler was not an atheist - he was fanatically religious according to his own words - and scholarly work about his life proves that it is a fact. Christian apologists try their best to make Adolf Hitler a secularist and an atheist but Hitler's own words belie what apologists say. Hitler condemned secularism and atheism, and spoke regularly to promote and defend traditional Christian beliefs.

Adolf Hitler was a Christian and in fact he made it clear that he learned from the early history of Christianity. Adolf Hitler said, "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.".

We know that any alleged (Jesus) would have to have been a Jew. However, not one shred of evidence has ever been produced to confirm (Jesus) existed, not one word of the bible can be proven to come from an original manuscript because none exist, and there is not one eyewitness account exists.

The Big Lie is a propaganda technique. "The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one." ~ Adolf Hitler

Hitler was dogmatic and firm in his Christian beliefs. Hitler was very impressed with those who were anti-Semitic, like Martin Luther and the composer Wagner. Hitler believed in the Christian religion and thought it justified anti-Semitism because it is full of anti-Semitism.

HISTORICAL RESEARCH: It's that stuff that you never do.

315-337 Constantine I the Great refers to Jews as the "impure beings", members of "unclean and pernicious sect".

325 First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea - the Christian Church separates Easter from Passover: "We desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews".

388 Christian mobs incited by the local bishop plunders and burns down a synagogue in Callinicum.

399 The Western Roman Emperor Flavius Augustus Honorius calls Judaism superstitio indigna and confiscates gold and silver collected by the synagogues for Jerusalem.

415 Jews are accused of ritual murder during Purim. The Church confiscates or burns synagogues in Antioch, Magona, Alexandria. Bishop St. Cyril of Alexandria forces his way into the synagogue expels the Jews and gives their property to the mob.

418 The first record of Jews being forced to convert or face expulsion.

419 The monk Barsauma (subsequently the Bishop of Nisibis) gathers a group of followers and for the next three years destroys synagogues throughout the Eretz Israel.

429 The East Roman Emperor Theodosius II orders all funds raised by Jews to support schools be turned over to his treasury.

439 Jan 31. Code of Theodosius: the first imperial compilation of anti-Jewish laws after Constantine. Jews are prohibited from holding important positions involving money, including judicial and executive offices. The ban against building new synagogues is reinstated. The anti-Jewish statutes apply to the Samaritans. Western Roman Emperor, Valentinian III, also accepts the Code.

451 Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II of Persia's decree abolishes the Sabbath and orders executions of Jewish leaders, including the Exilarch Mar Nuna.

465 Council of Vannes, Gaul prohibited the Christian clergy from participating in Jewish feasts. These facts indicate that Christians and anti-Semitism were always pretty chummy.

Christian apologists claim that Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust are all consequences of atheism, secularism, and liberalism. But these arguments have nothing to do with reality. Adolf Hitler regularly proclaimed his faith in Nazis and Adolf Hitler are represented as the opposite of Christian values, but if that's true, why did tens of millions of German Christians adore Hitler, join the Nazis, and participate in the Holocaust and other atrocities? Hitler and the Nazis promoted a Christian nationalism, anti-communism, anti-Semitism, and return to traditional values, which most Christians appreciated. Nazi ideology supported Christianity, and Nazi anti-Semitism was firmly grounded in Christian anti-Semitism. Hitler was most popular with the conservative Christians, who were seeking a restoration of traditional values. Hitler promised to restore traditional morality. Hitler expressly appealed to Christianity on a regular basis.

The word "suicide" is not found in the Bible. There is no reason to believe that anyone who committed atrocities or opted out would not go to heaven according to the scriptures. There were numerous atrocities and genocide committed against people in the bible commanded by god. So claiming there is a moral god means nothing. If xians require threats of eternal damnation to keep them from going on killing sprees they should not be running around lose. Besides anything that requires threats and bribes to get people in it can't be all that good to begin with. Religion comes from an unsound mind, and is born out of fear, which has done nothing but bring unimaginable misery upon the human race. There is no "He" that makes anything right we do. Ethics and morality have nothing to do with belief in supernatural beings.

Many Eastern European immigrants were Union organizers, referred to as secular leftists or communists by the opposition, they were very key players in organizing workers against the greed of corporations, and achieving rank and file leadership in the Unions. That's the real reason for stirring people up against them. They had restricted the immigration from Eastern Europe by the beginning of WWII and some had deported.

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From the officers:

The audio and video from Steve Bratteng's July 13th lecture are now available.