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Atheist Experience
Jesus, Outside Bible references.

Was talking with a newborn Christian, friend of mine, and I ask about historical references about Jesus. He put the Josephus card, but I said it was a forgery, but the thing is, he mentioned:

Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the youngest, and the babilonic cabala, What about them?, I search around but all the info I manage to get its a chaos, and every source clams they have the truth...

I wish you can help me, folks.


There are no actual Roman records (from the actual time period) of a Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Historians know that there are no writings by anyone that were written at the time of the events that that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus were written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from unknown authors, people who never knew Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Many writings about Jesus are forgery or the retelling of myths. The information and dates of these (so-called) historical writings show they could not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because they all came from hearsay accounts. Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge. None of these historians' scant writings about Jesus give reliable sources to eyewitnesses; therefore all we have remains as hearsay, and even the New Testament writings came from Paul's vision well after the alleged death of Jesus and unknown authors.

Eusebius served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop, and he had great influence in the early Church. Eusebius openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mention Josephus' Jesus). Many scholars think that Eusebius not Josephus was responsible for those writings. Eusebius wrote about (how it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived).

Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century even wrote: "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides"(a la Alice in Wonderland). Considering what we know about the early Church's intolerant and biased position these so-called historical writings that supports the Church are not reliable evidence.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus were written by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote in 93 C.E., after the first gospels were written, even if it were not forgery his information could only serve as hearsay.

Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, born in 62 C.E. His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of eyewitness accounts.

Tacitus - Roman historian's born 64 C.E., well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his writings around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E. mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about a real Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

Cabala Kabbalah, Kabala, and Qabalah come from the same source. Kabala originated in early Chaldean and other Mesopotamian cultures, including ancient Egypt. The Kabala is presented, symbolically in the form of The Tree of Life. It originated from the Stone of Egypt. Qabalah Tree of Life Kabbalah are intertwined with: Greek and Egyptian deities, mysteries (taken from the "Book of Enus" found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Pagan Mystery perpetuated in the Cabala the one-ness of the Pantheistic the unity of nature in which the Pagans believed and is not monotheistic.

Kabala is Jewish mysticism - abracadabra. Probably during the age of enlightenment (Darwin) Christian apologists started using ancient Jewish Kabbalah to prove Christianity. But the lack of exact historical knowledge concerning the persona and teachings of Yeshua (search for presumed lost textual source known as the Q document) means it is not evidence of Jesus.

Egypt is the cradle of civilization - all disciplines originated there. Kabala phallic symbolism, fertility rites, agriculture rites, and Sun God Rites that evolved around the winter and summer solstice birth, death, resurrection, and ascension. The story of Osiris, Isis and Heru was a story of antiquity, which had been told thousands of years before the Christian version of Jesus (Yeshua). Christians who regurgitated these ancient pagan myths as divine phenomena believed that gave them authority over other faiths.

Jesus was supposed to have been the first world savior born of immaculate conception on December 25, suffered the crucifixion and was resurrected as an act of defying death and ascended (all this mythology was more related to birth and decline of the physical Sun) from myths Krishna, Mithra, Addonis, Buddha Apollo, Osiris, Quetzalcoatl and others shared this so-called divine phenomena long before Jesus. The pyramids were built to preserve the soul and this is the origin of the immorality of the soul. The Egyptian Book of Dead provides us with this information.

Some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu (a common name in Jewish literature) in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Jesus, actually depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus. The Palestinian Talmud was written between the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion. It is a combo Christian - pagan legend; it is not evidence for a historical Jesus.

Christian apologists mostly use these sources as "evidence" of Jesus because they believe they represent the best outside sources. All other sources (Christian and non-Christian) come from even less reliable sources, Clement -Justin Martyr - Lucian - Ignatius - Tertullian - Hippolytus - Cyprian , all of these people lived well after the alleged death of Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account; all of it is simply hearsay.

Wow, Linda, that was amazing.

thank you very much!

Linda, great post. However, I question your blanket assertion that Egypt was the cradle of civilization and the beginning of all disciplines. It's very fashionable to claim this it seems, but insofar as your post was about evidence, your claim is not supported by the evidence. Sumer is older, agriculture arose in Anatolia, some of the astronomically based megaliths of Europe are much older than the pyaramids, and as for the so-called "mysteries" which are purported to have originated in Egypt, the fact is they are a knock-off of the Greek Eleusinian and Orphic mysteries and rites brought to Egypt subsequent to Alexander's conquest. Nevermind the philosophical disciplines of Greece which in no way could have originated in texts like the Book of the Dead or the Pyramid texts, which were simply books of spells.

Take care. Robert

The oldest writing from Egypt is from the reign of King Scorpion I, about 5300 years ago, 3300-3200 BCE. There has been a contest between Egypt and Syria/Sumer/Highland Iran for the oldest writing. Scholars list all of these places as the cradle of civilization. If writing is taken as a prerequisite for civilization, the earliest "cradle" is Early Dynastic Egypt and Sumer. Martin Bernal is the author of Black Athena: the Afro-asiatic Roots of Classical Civilization 1987. Martin Bernal is a British Professor Emeritus of Ancient Eastern Mediterranean Studies at Cornell University. Martin, son of Dr. John Bernal, who laid the foundation of molecular biology, and grandson of Sir Alan Gardiner, the eminent Oxford University Egyptologist, and World top Hieroglyphic expert.

Cornell's Orientalist Martin Bernal in his work 'Black Athena' reinterpreted the roots of classical civilization, contending that ancient Greek culture derived from Egypt, and through Phoenicia, a fact that was confessed by the Greeks themselves.

Influential Greek philosophers and authors: "Thus the mathematical sciences originated in the neighborhood of Egypt, because there the priestly class was allowed leisure" Aristotle. "On a visit to Egypt Pythagoras became a student of the religion of the people, and was first to bring to the Greeks all philosophy" Isocrates. Geometry was invented, it is said, from the measurement of lands which is made necessary by the Nile when it confounds the boundaries at the time of its overflows. This science, then, is believed to have come to the Greeks from the Aegyptians (Egyptians); astronomy and arithmetic from the Phoenicians; and at present the far the greatest store of knowledge in every other branch of philosophy is had from these cities. And if one must believe Poseidonius, the ancient dogma about atoms originated with Mochus, a Sidonian (Phoenician), born before the Trojan times" Strabo. "Egyptians have not only been accepted by the present inhabitants but have aroused no little admiration among the Greeks; and for that reason those men who have won the greatest repute in intellectual things have been eager to visit Egypt in order to acquaint themselves with its laws and institutions. Egypt was nevertheless eagerly visited by Orpheus and the poet Homer in the earliest times and in later times by many others, such as Pythagoras of Samos and Solon the lawgiver" Diodorus. "Pythagoras left the city and went off to Egypt and Babylon, to satisfy his fondness for learning" Strabo. "Thales exhorted Pythagoras to sail into Egypt, and associate with the Memphian and Diosolitan priests. For he confessed that his own reputation for wisdom, was derived from the instructions of these priests; but that he was neither naturally, nor by exercise, endued with those excellent prerogatives, which were so visibly displayed in the person of Pythagoras. Thales, therefore, gladly announced to him, from all these circumstances, that he would become the wisest and most divine of all men, if he associated with these Egyptian priests" Iamblichus. "He (Thales) had no instructor, except he when to Egypt and spent time with the priests there" Diagnose. This is also confirmed by the most learned of Greeks such as Solon, Thales, Plato, Eudoxus, Pythagoras, and as some say, even Lycurgus going to Egypt and conversing with the priests; of whom they say Euxodus was a hearer of Chonuphis of Memphis, Solon of Sonchis of Sais, and Pythagoras of Oenuphis of Heliopolis. Wherefore the last named, being, as is probable, more than ordinarily admired by the men, and they also be him imitated their symbolic and mysterious way of talking; obscuring his sentiments with dark riddles. For the greatest part of Pythagoric precepts fall nothing short of those sacred writings they call hieroglyphical" Plutarch.

The earliest writing ever according to scholarly report on the BBC in 1998 could be found in southern Egypt, and it was confirmed four years later, in Chicago Oriental Institute. The find, hieroglyphics record linen and oil deliveries made over 5,000 years ago, challenges the widely-held belief that the Sumerians of Mesopotamia, were the first to write sometime before 3000 BC. The discovery supports Bernal. Archaeological experts describe the find as, "one of the greatest discoveries in the history of writing and ancient Egyptian civilization," as reported by Professor Kent Weeks, Egyptology professor, the American University, Cairo. Dr. Dreyer and his team have unearthed, at the time, about 300 pieces of clay tablets barely bigger than postage stamps, with written material on, similar to the Sumerian cuniforms. Clay jars and vases also displayed the documentary records of linen and oil delivered to King Scorpion I, as taxes. Most of the hieroglyphics have been deciphered, including short notes, numbers, lists of kings' names and names of ancient institutions. The writings reflect a society that was then far more developed than previously thought, said AUC professor.

What is the case is that Bernal demonstrates a massive association between Egyptian and Greek linguistically, a link that few critics have been willing to attack him on. Whatever one concludes, the dominant impression is that the Greeks borrowed many divinities from Egypt, just as Rome borrowed the Greek gods. The particular strength of Bernal's analysis is not simply that he notes how, for instance, Ht Nt may be plausibly linked to Athena, it is that this linking is justified by the associations the words retain in both Language.

There is plenty of evidence that people were living in the Aegean for thousands of years prior to Greece, known as the cradle of civilization, somehow in contact with or influenced by Egypt, or the Pheonicians.

Ugarit passed into the sphere of influence of Egypt, which deeply influenced its art. The earliest Ugaritic contact with Egypt (and the first exact dating of Ugaritic civilization) comes from a carnelian bead identified with the Middle Kingdom pharaoh Senusret I, 1971 BCE-1926 BC. A stela and a statuette from the Egyptian pharaohs Senusret III and Amenemhet III have also been found. An important textual finds from the Ras Shamra (Ugarit) site shed a great deal of light upon where the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) has it's origins.

Have a "spiffy" day Robert.

Hi Linda, It's disengenuous for you to omit responding to nearly every single point in my post and cut and paste Bernal's material, when you must know very well that Bernal's assertions have been challenged widely outside of the afro-centrist fringe. I could post hundreds of links rebutting Bernal and cut and paste from these websites as well if you like, but this would be beside the point. As for claims of a philosphical "stolen" legacy, besides anecdotal evidence and the claims by afrocentrists, where is the hard evidence? Where is the historical consensus regarding hard evidence that Greek epistemology, ontology, metaphysics, etc. were derived from the Egyptians? Bernal, for example, relied heavily on Herodotus's etymologies of certain Greek words being derived from Egyptian, when the consensus now is that Herodotus's own etymologies were false. So Linda, put up or shut up. You need to "PROOVE" your original claim that "all disciplines originated there (Egypt)." Again, reread my original response to you very slowly and carefully, and present your rebuttal point by point.

Your wishes for spiffy days right back at you.

Bernal's book, if you had read it you would know, what I wrote about the Greeks was not in his book. I wouldn't even need his book to prove your wrong. If writing is taken as a prerequisite for civilization, the earliest "cradle" is Early Dynastic Egypt and Sumer. This came from many scholars - Your argument adds up to nah uh! Today's beginning of Mesopotamian civilization around -3000 was obtained by employing unscholarly dating techniques which prefer Bible Fundamentalist genealogies and pseudo-astronomical retro calculations to volume of strata and their depth in the ground. Ancient Greek authors never give the slightest hint of a "Sumerian" civilization. In their own cuneiform writing they call their country Kalam and its inhabitants people of Kalam.

The true father of medicine is Imhotep an Egyptian. Hippocrates wrote that he was a student of the great Imhotep. Euclid of Alexandria |(325-265 BC) Egyptian mathematician. Euclid lived in Egyptian Alexandria. Euclid was an Egyptian, born in Alexandria in 356 BCE He died in Athens, Greece in 300 BCE. Like Egyptian geometry, the geometry of the Pythagoreans is much concerned with an area, which is due to Euclid, not to the Pythagoreans.

Great Library of Alexandria in 283 BC. Pharaoh, Ptolomy II Soter, founded the Museum or Royal Library of Alexandria in 283 BC. in Alexandria Egypt. It has been estimated that at one time the Library of Alexandria held over half a million documents from Assyria, Greece, Persia, Egypt, India and many other nations. Remember the library is in Egypt - don't forget that. Over 100 scholars lived at the Museum full time to perform research, write, and lecture or translate and copy documents. The library was so large it actually had another branch or "daughter" library at the Temple of Serapis. Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". But the story is also a tad more complex. Theophilus was Patriarch of Alexandria from 385 to 412 AD. During his reign the Temple of Serapis was converted into a Christian Church (probably around 391 AD) and it is likely that many documents were destroyed then. Theophilus destroyed the last of the scrolls when he razed the Temple of Serapis prior to making it a Christian church.

None of the Greek quotes in the previous post came from Bernal's book. It came from the Greeks. Greeks wrote things that people could read today (unlike Jesus who didn't.) The BBC report on the oldest writing found in Egypt was not from the book. US scientists believe they have found the earliest surviving alphabet in ancient Egyptian limestone inscriptions. Yale University Egyptologist, Dr John Darnell, found the letters in a Semitic language, carved in stone cliffs west of the Nile. He says they are nearly 4,000 years old, dating from around 1800 to 1900 BC. The letters are in a Semitic language, but Dr Darnell says they show a strong Egyptian influence. He believes the letters may have been invented as a simplified version of an existing form of "cursive" or joined-up Egyptian pictographs, commonly used in ancient Egypt. The first Semitic alphabet was developed from hieroglyphs. This writing pre-dates Sumerian Cuneiform writing - the Ancient Egyptian script is the oldest known writing system.

Someone who just can't understand the answer is not my problem? The writing of the Greeks who stated that they learned various disciplines from the Egyptians - you do know that these were mathematicians and scholars - the names are real Greek authors and scholars? Do you know what that means? If the Greeks stated they learned their philosophy from the Egyptians? Oh! I know - they lied? Iamblichus wrote that Thales of Milete had to make it clear to Pythagoras that the latter had to go to Memphis, in Egypt, to study. Thales added that it was Egyptian priests that were a veritable source of knowledge and information. Thales stated this at a time when he himself was Greece's most famous and applauded philosopher, even though it would be his protégé Pythagoras who is currently best remembered as the first philosopher.

After Socrates' death, Plato left for Egypt, where he studied for a period of 13 years. His mentor was Sechnuphis, a priest of Heliopolis (near the Great Pyramid). Years afterwards, Strabo would travel through Egypt. His Egyptian guide showed him where Plato had lived. The answer is clear.

Plato's philosophy is deviation from anything Greek. Plato stated that many souls of the deceased reincarnated both in animals and humans. This concept was unknown in Greece, where it was believed that death signaled the end; only an "underworld" lay behind the veil of death. It was the Egyptians who believed that death was only a passing, the soul continuing to exist beyond that event.

It is perfectly acceptable to use the findings of any expert and include it, but it was a very small part of what was written. You must have missed what was said about Ugarit also, and that didn't come from Bernal's book. There is plenty of proof but that's not the real problem. Everyone has to get the information from studies done by experts with scholarship and credibility who have done the studies and testing, or it's crap.

Greek myths take the evidence further. They clearly state that the first "Greeks" were Egyptians, who had colonized the Greek isles and mainland. Diodorus Siculus wrote that Kekrops originated from Egypt and founded Athens as a colony of the Egyptian town of Sais.

Something else you won't like, the Ten Commandments were copied from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The word Amen at the end of prayer is a name of an Egyptian god, meaning 'the hidden'. It is not a word it is a name. From old Egyptian texts we can see that people regarded the Sun as the emblem of the Creator. They called the Sun Ra, and all other gods and goddesses were forms of the Creator. One of these gods was Amen; a secret, hidden and mysterious god named Amen. Amen can be found in numerous references throughout the bible Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." Amen was an ancient Egyptian god (originally associated with the ancient city of Thebes) the name Amen means, "hidden one", "the breath of life" - "creator of the human soul." Revelation 3:14, Jesus is speaking, and refers to himself as "the Amen".

You have proven nothing. Egypt and Chaldaea belong to an advanced civilization "The Cradle of Civilization."

Your "blanket statement" tirade is just silly; you're statements and remarks are just dullard stuff. To say nothing of the fact that nothing you have said had anything to do with the question that was originally being answered or has any bearing on the topic. Try to find "something" and say it's wrong? Your toes were stepped on a long time ago and when someone said the Jesus story has no eyewitnesses and proved it. There is a definite connection to ancient Egypt - and the bible.

Most Professors refer to Egypt and the surrounding area as the "Cradle of Civilization" but what do they know? Professors and scholars now think Egypt is the cradle of civilization because of the finding the oldest writing. Your silly little tirades and pointless dribble prove that your way smarter than anyone and it all came from you.

Nah ah doesn't mean much. You clearly can't understand the answers. That's why you make nasty allegations (that are very familiar.) Don't go away mad - just go!


What is being said is that Martin Bernal in his work 'Black Athena' reinterpreted the roots of classical civilization, contends that ancient Greek culture derived from Egypt, and through Phoenicia, a fact that was confessed by the Greeks themselves.

Then she gives the names of the Greek philosophers and authors. Those were quotes from them that they wrote, not Martin Bernal. The Greek names are after the quotes. You don't know Greek writings or their names? Hm hum?

"Thus the mathematical sciences originated in the neighborhood of Egypt, because there the priestly class was allowed leisure" Aristotle. Aristotle is a well known Greek. Math is a discipline. "On a visit to Egypt Pythagoras became a student of the religion of the people, and was first to bring to the Greeks all philosophy" Isocrates. Philosophy is a discipline, and Isocrates was a Greek who began his career as a logographer, writing speeches for others. In 390 he turned to writing and teaching. He founded a school in Athens. All the rest of the quotes give disciplines and quotes from Greeks who say the Egyptians taught them. So that's plain as the nose on anyone's face.

Aristotle wrote, "the female is a deformed male." Just in case you think these guys were really smart! The feelings inspired by music, wonder or awe at nature's grandeur is not a sentiment to which the Greeks were especially disposed. They were more like the beer-bellied couch potato, who sits and watches football, orders women to get them a beer and stares at half-naked cheerleaders on tv. They also threw people over cliffs for birth defects.

Greece had several wars, including the Trojan War around 1200 B.C., which threw them into what is known as the Dark Age. During that time, knowledge of writing was lost and most people lived in isolated villages. The Dark Age ended in about 800 B.C when the Greeks started to write again with an alphabet based on that of the Phoenicians. During that time, many city-states emerged and struggled with each other for power for hundreds of years after that. In 480 B.C., the Greeks united to defeat the invading Perisans, but the alliance didn't last long. Around 477 B.C., two city-states, Athens and Sparta, became the dominant powers in that region and constantly fought each other for power. Greece had its Golden Age in Athens around 477 - 431 B.C. In 334 B.C., Alexander the Great, leader of the country of Macedonia to the north, conquered the Greeks and started what is called the Hellenistic Age. Alexander the Great entered Egypt, he was welcomed as the son of the god Amun and he was immediately accepted. Alexander made pilgrimage to the great temple and oracle of Amon-Ra, Egyptian god of the sun, whom the Greeks identified with Zeus. Alexander the Great was the ancient world's mightiest warrior. Alexander the Great (356-323 BC), the king of Macedonia that conquered the Persian. Therefore, his empire is correctly called Macedonian, not Greek, He died Pharaoh of Egypt. This all came from many different sources that I had to read and edit, and then write it up in some coherent fashion. You write something and then you give corroborating evidence from other sources. Like what Bernal said, then quotes from the Greeks that back it up. It was to prove that there is other evidence not in the book backing it up. That's how any fact-based writing about ancient history is done, it's done through research. It's like a little thesis.

I found this interesting tid bit.

Science Daily (May 9, 2007) - Scientists examining documents dating back 3,500 years say they have found proof that the origins of modern medicine lie in ancient Egypt and not with Hippocrates and the Greeks.

The University of Manchester discovered the evidence in medical papyri written in 1,500BC - 1,000 years before Hippocrates was born. Classical scholars have always considered the ancient Greeks, particularly Hippocrates, as being the fathers of medicine but these findings suggest that the ancient Egyptians were practicing a credible form of pharmacy and medicine much earlier.

When the ancient remedies are compared against modern pharmaceutical protocols and standards, they found the prescriptions in the ancient documents not only compared with pharmaceutical preparations of today but that many of the remedies had therapeutic merit.

RobertN said, "Sumer is older, agriculture arose in Anatolia, some of the astronomically based megaliths of Europe are much older than the pyaramids, and as for the so-called "mysteries" which are purported to have originated in Egypt, the fact is they are a knock-off of the Greek Eleusinian and Orphic mysteries and rites brought to Egypt subsequent to Alexander's conquest."

The stuff you wrote is very old and very common, you see it all the time, and it's wrong just like pyramids are not spelled pyaramids.

RobertN said, "Hi Linda, It's disengenuous for you to omit responding to nearly every single point in my post and cut and paste Bernal's material, when you must know very well that Bernal's assertions have been challenged widely outside of the afro-centrist fringe. I could post hundreds of links rebutting Bernal and cut and paste from these websites as well if you like, but this would be beside the point. As for claims of a philosphical "stolen" legacy, besides anecdotal evidence and the claims by afrocentrists, where is the hard evidence? Where is the historical consensus regarding hard evidence that Greek epistemology, ontology, metaphysics, etc. were derived from the Egyptians? Bernal, for example, relied heavily on Herodotus's etymologies of certain Greek words being derived from Egyptian, when the consensus now is that Herodotus's own etymologies were false. So Linda, put up or shut up. You need to "PROOVE" your original claim that "all disciplines originated there (Egypt)." Again, reread my original response to you very slowly and carefully, and present your rebuttal point by point."

I did read it - it's was no better the second time. Here are some more of your misspelled words. If you don't think that was answered - think again. Disingenuous not disengenuous (I know when I used that word) philosophical not philosphical.

Martin Bernal in his book says Herodotus maintained that Egyptians had taught the Greeks the names of nearly all the gods as well as many of the religious practices. In the same spirit, the ancient Greeks had a complete set of equations between Greek and Egyptian divinities. Thus, for instance, they saw their Zeus as the Egyptian Ammon, their Athena as the Egyptian Neit. By Hellenistic and Roman times it is clear that Greeks saw the Egyptian forms as older and superior to their own. This explains why Greeks and Romans of these periods so often replaced their cults by Egyptian ones. There are people saying Herodotus was a liar but Scholars know Herodotus wrote about religion; myths and fact based history. Most scholars do not think he was a liar - people believe in things right now that aren't true.

Aristotle introduced Herodotus - Herodotus of Thurii hereby publishes the results of his inquiries. That is an ancient city in Italy. Scholars have been puzzled over that.

Archeological finds are changing what people think about ancient history. It took 30 years to get some of the information about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and most people still don't know what was really in them because of reading misinformation instead of scholarly books. The scrolls were only released after a professor and scholar demanded it.

Saying that there is nothing but anecdotal evidence means nothing. Apologists and history revisionists do that all the time. Case closed. A few facts from science: There is no historical or archeological evidence that the Israelites were ever enslaved in Egypt and there was no evidence of any exodus from Egypt. A few years ago the archeologists Israel Finkelstein (Tel Aviv University) and Neil Asher Silberman (director of historical interpretation, Ename Center for Public Archeology and Heritage Presentation, Belgium) summarized the archeological findings and latest corrections regarding the historical origins of the Jewish nation. In their words, "The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan - they emerged from within it. There was no mass exodus from Egypt.

You butted in on something that had nothing to do with the information the first poster asked about. It was about eyewitnesses to the Jesus story and I proved that too. Egypt being the cradle of civilization has no impact on the first post. I answered that so-called rebuttal. Your stuff is not interesting, new or of any value.

If you don't think I proved what I said that's not my problem. I have no interest in your drivel. You were answered more than once. I won't do it again. Don't write me with Hi and then write a vitriolic bunch of trash ending with take care either - I do. When someone wants to evaluate anything the approach is totally different; this was just sick ramblings between misspelled words and junk. I won't answer any of your future ploys - under any name.

Hi again Linda,

You really need to put down the crackpipe before you write nonsense like the following:

"Your toes were stepped on a long time ago and when someone said the Jesus story has no eyewitnesses and proved it."

Aside from that being a poorly constructed sentence, what does it have to do with anything? I actually agreed with you about the Jesus myth and never argued the point. This was never the point of contention. The point was you made a sweeping statement which is simply false, and you're either to dimwitted or to stubborn to admit it.

You wrote "all disciplines originated there (Egypt)." False. Agriculture originated in Anatolia; temple building originated at places like Gobekli Tepe, Anatolia and the island of Malta; evidence for the first observatory is from Goseck Germany. Look it up yourself. You claim in your newest post that this information is common and wrong, yet you provide no evidence, because you have none and it doesn't jibe with your afrocentrist agenda. You've just made your hole even deeper. Consider your hypothesis falsified. Never mind the fact that the earliest supposed "evidence" for Greek philosophers traveling to Egypt comes from Diodorus in the 1st century b.c. who made his accounts based on the boasts of Egyptian priests. Never mind that Plato's theory of metempsychosis has much more in common with Hindu philosophy on the afterlife than Egyptian, or that he never mentions anywhere in his own accounts that he traveled to Egypt. You made a sweeping generalization, got called out on it, and rather than admit it, post pages of nonsense which didn't even address the issue in order to obfuscate the fact. You resort to ad hominems and fake righteous indignation and claiming my original post was vitriolic, when it was you who started PMSing and resorting to insults. So in the future, Linda, rather than copying and pasting pages of drivel like an ignorant nubian dunce from fringe afrocentrist or new agey Philip Coppens type websites that you're too embarrassed to cite, just stick to the issue, or be prepared to have to back up your loony wide-eyed generalizations when you make them. If you're too thin-skinned and your ego bruises easily, don't make them in the first place.

Hotep, nubian sista.

And do take care.

Robert N. said, "you're either to dimwitted or to stubborn to admit it."

TOO dimwitted or TOO stubborn, Robert dear.

Robert N also said, "your afrocentrist agenda;..pasting pages of drivel like an ignorant nubian dunce from fringe afrocentrist,;..Hotep, nubian sista.." You are a racist a**hole. You are too ignorant to know that there were a variety of people in Egypt, so there is nothing "afrocentrist" about what Linda posted. Robert N-does the N stand for Nutjob?

In response to racist remarks and personal attacks:

Let's get this out of the way first, Robert is too backward to know that an academic discipline refers to a body of knowledge that is being given to, or has been received by a student. It is referring to higher learning, not farming. It took him several days to write a response and he still made mistakes. He doesn't even know how to use the word too. He is arguing about Egypt and he can't spell pyramids?

I have been crawling over this message board like a fly ever since I saw the first psychotic assault on Linda here. I have found many more with the same (modus operandi) and I'm sure this racist is too dumb to know what that means. He can look it up on the Internet.

I noticed on one thread that Linda said she is Irish, and the Irish are the whitest people on earth. This racist was trying to inspire other racist to attack her, and I bet there's plenty of them around. I'm glad I live in New Hampshire. The first thing I want to do is warn Linda about this racist stalker who is only fixated on her. Notice that no matter how many others people didn't agree with him he ignored it, and not only here but on other threads; the very same thing. This person is making noxious personal attacks on Linda and then playing victim. She has not cast any aspersions on anyone's character on this message board anywhere. This person has done that, while playing the victim. This is very typical; it is the way he sees it in his sick mind. He is trying to bring someone he resents down to his extremely low level, and that is the person he is fixated on. I started studying this board after his remarks; this is a sick puppy. There was a person trying to convert Linda and anywhere she commented he came in with his religious retorts. When nothing worked, on one of his posts, he said that he could be an atheist too. He was fixated on her, but then name started to change, but it was the same rhetoric. He gave two different stories about his religion under one name, and someone caught that. He said in one of his posts that he thinks that you can convert people by making them uncomfortable. He was trying to convert Linda in particular because she is clearly "the" atheist. This is a-theist here no doubt, but many of these off balance people do infiltrate groups. We have had this happen in our group many times, and we get rid of them.

Linda, you can't be smart because he isn't. I say that because this is a pattern that appears on many threads. You may have two stalkers or just one, because a very sick person can appear to be more than one person. I saw a post that made me consider that possibility, where the person claimed to be an atheist, but the post indicated a-theist. The remarks went like this, how do we know where we go when we go to sleep, we could go to sleep and come back as another person, yeah, if we are schizophrenic.

I have seen most of Linda's writings, and I know good writing, as Jane said, you are amazing. I know that the information on the first post could not be found in one place even in the library. I know because I have a master's degree in literature. It is very apparent that Linda can write about extremely difficult concepts in math and science from the perspective of someone who thoroughly understands the subject matter. I have read many things you have written Linda, on ancient history, and I know it is not in one book or on the Internet, it can only be found by reading many books. The Internet is a very inferior resource unless you know your stuff and have the latest information, because there is a huge amount of false information. I am certain that Linda knows that because she has ignored that information. Her writings on this topic dispute most of that kind of misinformation; a fact that would escaped this uneducated racist slob. Two of the college professors I work with say Egypt is the cradle of civilization, and they teach ancient history.

Linda, his idea is to prove he is smart by proving that you are not, which is never going to happen. He is trying to elevate himself by tearing you down. I say this because he tried to make his inept disagreement over something an excuse to personally attack you, and then he tried to play victim. This is a combination of jealousy and you can't be that smart and be an atheist. I've seen it before.

In response to his "crack" accusation directed at Linda, I think the "crack" problem fits him, or is it just a mental problem, or both. Also, in response to his p.m.s. remark, that probably isn't as serious as being a impotent male, which is what I suspect we have here. But I'm sure we have the quintessential a- theist approach. Cast aspersions upon someone's character and intelligence when they don't agree with you.

Linda, don't let this bother you because smart people like you, and they know that you go out of your way to help people find answers that are not on the Internet, which is exactly what the first poster said. I have never seen you write anything to an honest person that was mean, and they write very nice things about you. That's what is bothering this insipid, aggressively ignorant sneak. You do need to take care Linda.

I intentionally gave this weenie plenty of reasons to attack me, and I will continue to do so.



Nobody cares what you think. You are an uninformed racist, who has to cut and paste any word that isn't spelled wrong.

You should be washing and ironing a sheet, you might need one for cross burning?

The historians have attributed the disciplines of architecture, physics, engineering, mathematics, medicine, religion, art, music, science, etc., all originated in ancient Egypt and no doubt this truth is indisputable. Kemet

There is DNA testing being done to determine race. Definitively determine the race and ethnicity of the ancient people who lived in Egypt.

Wikipedia online research source - "DNA testing concerning Egypt (Kemet), it stated, "Blood typing and DNA sampling on ancient Egyptian mummies is scant; however, blood typing of dynastic mummies found ABO frequencies to be most similar to modern Egyptians and some also to Northern Haratin (Mauritania and Western Sahara--Black Moors) populations. ABO blood group distribution shows that the Egyptians form a sister group to North African populations, including Berbers, Nubians and Canary Islanders. DNA extraction (namely from the 12th dynasty) indicates multiple lines of descent, including sub-Saharan Africa, while the other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin as well (according to Keita, 1996)"

But that was not the argument, it was the disciplines didn't come from Egypt, and the answer is they did.

Ad hominemn - Linda just won't admit she is wrong - because she isn't. The elements are not encoded in Genesis.

The ancient Egyptians were possibly the first civilization to practice the scientific arts. The Egyptians really excelled in medicine and applied mathematics. Anyone saying that all disciplines came from Egypt is talking about that. You're not the one that won't admit when you're wrong.

Look at Atheist Eve (topic) Comic - Remarks made to Tracie Harris about her cartoons.

So- called - Sid "I think you're on crack."

Tracie Harris "While it may seem that the inspiration for my cartoons comes from crack, most of the ideas for Atheist Eve actually come from Christian arguments I have heard from Christians or that can be found posted on the WWW at Christian apologetic sites."

What she said there was hysterically funny. She should draw a crack whore saying all of that to her and that answer. It would be a great cartoon.

Sid "Hmm, but you are definitely on crack my dear..".

Tracie Harris To be honest, I've never tried crack.

Sid "I have taken it once. Didn't like it. It did, however, inspire me to draw crappy cartoon strips that say nothing and mean nothing (much like yours, oddly enough...). If you're not on crack, my dear, you are certainly on something nasty..".

Is this a habit, or the insult was copied, take your pick.

Look at the Elements Are Encoded In Genesis (Linda proof of coding in the bible is ANECDOTAL) - Loving A Theist - same spelling and grammar mistakes. Then Look at Trying to Understand - I know more about Christianity than any other religion - same name - Loving A Theist - I'm from a Buddhist family. Then look at Conversion What Would It Take - different name - I'm a Buddhist - then look at Atheist do not Exist - I'm an agnostic atheist - same name.

Atheist Community of Austin - Big Bang, Evolution, or Intelligent Design

Linda "I think it is a little DISINGENUOUS to imply that Don needs assistance when he did answer his questions."

xian games.

It makes the atheist look bad. WOW!

Doesn't know the meaning of the word disciplines.

This is Leysin, I only use this handle and I have never used anything else. I feel necessary that I reply. I feel that accusations about my activities on this forum are being used to further unfair debating. I am deeply offended that Fact Finder or anyone else would imply that I have been disingenuous or tried to pretend to be someone that I am not. If a post is from me, I will always use Leysin to identify myself. And if I see a comment I didn't make using my handle, I will clearly note anyone pretending to be me. I enjoy the ACA forum and will continue to make comments as I see fit. I don't know all about the other drama happening on this site, but it seems to me Linda has made several enemies.

Over the years that the ACA has been operating, there have been a few mentions of Linda's lengthy postings and being off topic and her aggressive stance. So it is clear that this is Linda's modus operandi. If this is how she chooses to express herself then so be it. She offends says that if you don't like then shove it or tuff tacos. That just says to me how stubborn and angry she must be and is not willing to listen. She goes so far as to attacking other atheist that doesn't comply with her standards. She can't even see past her own faults and is set in her ways and that is disappointing.

I have only known of the ACA and participated in the forum not that long, I'd say since February of this year. I see that some posters like Linda have been participating for many years now. Even though I have my own criticism of Linda, there is no doubt she has a basket full of information to share and has generated lots of respect for doing so. As a newbie, I have noticed that when anyone have pointed out that maybe her writing is too lengthy or that she is going on a ranting tangent, a horde of her friends will come down to defend her. Commonly used attacks are spelling or grammar errors. Another way they try to discredit someone is by calling them a liar and a fraud. She is very good at dissecting every word and every sentence that you write down. Just before you hit that save button, make sure you cross your T's and dot your I's, because her band of editors will use it against you. I fear that this bullying has been going on for quite sometime now and I sympathize with those who have been targeted. I am not in cahoots with anyone else on this site.

I consider myself an atheist, I am 100% Asian, born in Laos and immigrated here when I was 3. I grew up in a Buddhist family, but I have openly declared myself an atheist for 3yrs now. And even though I grew up in a Buddhist family, I don't know everything about Buddhism. I only know what I was exposed to. I am in a relationship with a theist, somewhat (go to Loving a Theist for my story). Now that I have formally introduced myself, I hope to have many interesting debates and can contribute to the discussions. I take no sides but my own and if your B.S. smells a little fishy, I will call you out on it. I have theist friends and atheist friends and everything in between. My intentions are to further my understanding and also to find common ground. Like everyone else you are free to disagree with my stance, but don't be shy if I am to challenge you or if you misrepresenting my words or my character. I am atheist not like you, so don't try to pigeon hole me to what you want everyone to be. That goes for Linda and all her cronies.

The person using two names is not your name. It's the one that at times can't put a coherent sentence together, and at other times he sounds like an adult. He didn't have trouble with Linda he tried to start a fight with Don and he didn't succeed so he started ranting about Linda. She wasn't even on the thread.

I have been around a long time too, and I know that Linda, Tracie and Don got this message board going when it was not doing anything. We all have had big run in's with theists, not atheists. Atheists wouldn't have a problem with anything that any of us are saying. They have a huge problem with the fact that Linda is very knowledgeable when it comes to how fake the bible is, science and many other things. Anyone that deems that a problem doesn't belong here since several other people can do that in spades. I can only assume that you never saw anything Tracie has written because she writes a lot like Linda. Tracie, Don, Linda and a few others did a lot of work to get this thing going. But I remember them doing the most. And every fanatic who didn't like what they were saying relentlessly attacked them.

This is not a quickie message board. It is meant to be a place where people can write more than sound bytes. There are plenty of those out there. But anyone who is going to be writing on this message board has no reason to think that they can interfere in any other person's conversation in order to personally attack them, and we are not talking about someone commenting on the topic. I didn't see any debate that Linda lost. I think it's very clear that she didn't. I looked at everything and I know who said something about weather or not someone was an atheist and it wasn't Linda. I also have seen a lot of complaints and they are not about Linda. All I have seen are people who have no reason to be on this message board because they are not discussing or debating anything. They are here to settle a score and that is not what this is for. Anyone can write anything if they are on a topic or they put up a topic. And anyone can answer the topic without being told that they are a moron or stupid, especially when everyone else said the very same thing. We all know when things smell fishy. Linda is talking to people, not about them. And if they don't want to read what she writes why do they answer her back repeatedly, and sometimes for days. Some of them have been communicating with her for years. Everyone knows exactly when the problems started here.

Thank you, Lois for clearing things up for me. I don't read every thread on the message board, so heated debates can be mistaken as a group ganging up on a individual poster. Even if it is a trolling theist, it bothers me to see someone ganged up on.

You say that this is a place where you can write more than sound bytes, but I prefer short dialogues in which I can easily follow without having to dig into the details. I act mostly as a spectator because I enjoy listening to conflicting views in debates. Not that I wouldn't do research on something that interested me, I just don't have the time or patience. I also chime in when I feel that I have opinion. But ever since my dispute with Linda, I am called ridiculous, moronic, and scrutinized for my writing mistakes. It doesn't bother me if no one reads what I have to say, but I seem to getting attacked for just saying something.

Linda is probably a nice person if you know her, but I don't. In my interaction with her, I feel she has criticized my relationship, generalized how an atheist should be and act, and condemn me for my spelling errors and sent word out to her supporters to bash me whenever they can. They go so far as linking me to racist comments made be other people and claiming that I must a theist, so sorry if I'm not a fan. Does this mean that if I disagree with anyone in the "OG Club", then I must be a theist or trolling for reactions? To me, it doesn't seem right that views that don't coincide with opinions like Linda's are disregarded and bullied out of the conversation, even if you say your atheist also.

On this topic they were referring to the vicious attack that went on here for no apparent reason. I mean, "all the disciplines" did come out of Egypt. I think that was well established, as well as, what that means. Nobody goes into an insane bazaar rampage like that over that kind of a disagreement; add the fact that he was saying she wouldn't say she is wrong. Why should she say she is wrong when she isn't? Nobody is going to do that anyone can take that to the bank.

You said that you apologized for that bazaar vicious attack that went on in the other thread, and the topic was pretty much ignored? I don't think the apology was at all sufficient and you continued the rant about Linda while you ignored all of the insults from everyone else about you, not Linda. Anyone who reads these kinds of insults that have nothing to do with the topics will probably say plenty even if they have never heard of Linda. You also insulted a lot of people on that thread. You are way out of line.

You kept on saying she won't admit that she was wrong, and it hurts you to say you are wrong "don't it" when there was no debate on that thread. I didn't see where Linda corrected the "grammer" or spelling; maybe that was another person. Couldn't have been anything going on that topic; must have been something that had gone on before.

She wouldn't listen because she was too stubborn; that doesn't fit anything that went on in that thread, either. None of us have to agree or listen to anything we don't want to hear or agree with, because theists always think we are wrong when they are.

Have you ever noticed that nobody can copy the original? "Pigeonholed" just seems like a cheap rip-off.

Oh! Did I mention that I used to be a fundamentalist, and "I know more about the Christian religion." I'm skilled in all the games.

You're right about one thing though, someone does have it in for Linda, and it is a theist. I thought it was a woman because it looks so girly. They are putting up maniacal arguments after her posts that are years old. Everything they're saying is not only wrong, but also very ignorant.

^^ Why do you think this old argument has lasted as long as it has? Factfinder started mentioning me on this thread, so I responded. Like in other threads, people feel the need to respond to my comments. My handle has also pops up in other threads, which analyzed my comments. Seems to me, some people have taken upon themselves to continue my dispute with Linda. You seem to have also tried your luck at taking shots at me. Did you really took the time to find my postings and analyzed my comments to find quotes that you can find faults with. Do you not realize that Linda hasn't mentioned me much since our dispute? So why is it incumbent upon you to respond under her behalf? I'm really not worth your time and effort. But if you can't help yourself, please continue bringing up my quarrel with Linda. I find it quite amusing that you and others have taken up this cause in order discredit me.

Because of the remarks he made about what was supposed to have been said on that other waste of time thread, I will give a semblance of some of what really went on. Leysin made these separate comments throughout his post about his relationship - "I find myself wanting her to listen to some of the arguments against belief in a supernatural being because I find them insightful and interesting. But to my disappointment she makes snide comments about the arguments and the person making them without really evaluating what was being said." - "It bothers me that she bashes atheist claims and ideas without giving a good reason why they are wrong or what she disagrees with."- "but this last time when I shared with her something that I thought was funny about believing in a god, she made a comment that offended me somehow and it just made me snapped. I got frustrated mostly because she wasn't really listen to what I had to share and it made me feel like she was being very dismissive." - "what really bothers me is that she is okay with believing that a god would send me and people like me to be tortured forever. It just rubs me the wrong way and gives me doubts about our relationship."

After Linda responded that they didn't listen to each other with a not at all rude reply. He replied with an incoherent angry and very rude reply about how he listens. The response sounded like he didn't get what she was saying, but I really don't think that was it. I also noted how little he cared about the topic once he really got started trashing Linda. And in that reply Leysin said, - "I am constantly bombarded with religious rhetoric."

Everyone else indicated that they thought that there was no communication going on, but he didn't go into a hissy fit on them.

badweaterhere (accurate pseudonym) told Linda that she shouldn't have a problem with going to church. Her name was before the statement. Also nobody on that thread said that they would go to church, and several adamantly said that they wouldn't. And that if anyone told them to go to church like they had done with Linda that they would have been far ruder than she was. Linda's answer was addressed to badweatherhere here not Leysin but he answered her reply, pretending her answer had something to do with him and his *relationship* when she was not answering Leysin, she was answering badweatherhere. And then Leysin (not badweatherhere) answered Linda. Badweatherhere never made another appearance. Probably (like the god fairy) he didn't exist. And only after a very long siege of Linda bashing did she say it's your nightmare, and mind you that was after he had said all of the above and threw his hissy fit.

Then he said it wasn't so bad later on. I guess it was so he could say Linda belittled his darling relationship. His relationship sounds like a nightmare to me, too.

That's what really happened and it was a ridiculous insane worthless thread, because he wasn't discussing his own topic, he was trashing Linda, and ignoring criticism from other posters of him. He belittled a woman and others who posted bad relationships with theists. He told them it was too bad they couldn't deal with the status quo.

He also thought that nosoapoperahfan was telling him to get an atheist girlfriend when s/he had never said that, she only said that she wouldn't comment on his problem at all. That is when he said he wouldn't trade his born again Christian for an atheist, no thanks. S/he only commented on his offensive behavior and told him s/he wouldn't go to church and nobody had better ever tell her/him to go to church. It was very plain that s/he flat wasn't interested in his personal life. And she told him he couldn't get an atheist girlfriend. Then he came back with - well that's what he thought because she was hostile to him. There was no reasonable reason to think any of that. That was just like the distortions that are going on here.

Notice as soon as someone says anything that he doesn't like he uses it as an excuse to continue with his "Linda trashing," because he hasn't really done anything else. Don't answer any more of his trash because this is all he is really here for.

Also, I have no idea if the criticisms about Linda are from one other person or more. I like to think that people are who they say are and I reply accordingly. If your claim is that the person calling themselves Leysin is using other names, then I am sorry to inform you that you are gravely mistaken. I have gone through almost all the threads posted by a Leysin and have not seen anyone using or misrepresenting my handle. And I assure you that I have been completely honest and sincere. Please leave me out of your conspiracy theory. I want no part of being called raciest, moronic, or fraudulent. I would like an apology for this mistake, for I have not beefed with anyone except Linda, in which I have already apologized to.

Your lengthy rant about everything you don't like about Linda is something that I think we have all heard many, many times. Nobody put your name on anything here. We were comparing misspelled words, discrepancies and various things on many threads. There were many post on them too.

I hardly think that you needed to put up a litany of all of the things that you seem to think Linda is doing wrong, that I have never observed. You have done that many times. You have also written more than one insulting post about her. You said she was off topic, but she wasn't, you were. You have a real problem with Linda and we all know that, but I think that you should observe that there are some people that have had far more trouble with people than she ever has. And if some of the remarks that have been made to her had been made to them, you would think that she was a pussycat in comparison.

I think you should forget about all of your grievances against Linda, but I doubt that you will.

^^Why do you doubt anything about me? Have I not apologized to Linda? Apparently you haven't read my entire dialogue concerning my disagreement with Linda. I suspect you just pick and choose what you want to hear and take some of my grievances out of context. If my observations about Linda are not something that hasn't been addressed before, then where have I said anything about her that is not true? Am I not allowed to agree with someone that makes the same observations? I felt that Linda was being condescending to me and to others. I felt she was mischaracterizing my relationship as being dysfunctional when responding to my thread. She called my views hypocritical B.S. and suggested that I get married in some church that doesn't exist. Am I not justified for being a little irritated?

I seem to have the reputation of bad English, so I'll own up to that. I disagreed with Linda about her saying that she finds it wrong for atheist to attend church activities. Why is that such a problem to disagree with her about that? I find it insulting that more focus is on my typos than my views. I sense that Linda uses this tactic to put someone down. I see that this is a common attack to discredit someone when you disagree with their views. Is this not a place to freely have open discussions without bickering about typos and grammar errors? Apparently it is not.

That person is someone who also has trouble with other atheists, and it was not about Linda. He tried to start a fight with Don and brought Linda into it. I think you are right there distorting something. Linda gets far more compliments than complaints. We know who is complaining and why. We all have the same kinds of problems, not just Linda. She does debate the theist and prove them wrong. Why would they like her? Every single one of us not just Linda has the same problem when we tell theist they are wrong. Some of them go off like a Roman candle, and if you went off on a rampage like you did with her to some I can think of, they would have said far worse to you than she did, believe me, and that's what happened first. She didn't start the problem you did, and then people reacted to what you were doing. Then you started insulting them. No, you don't have the right to just blare into a discussion on another thread and start talking about what you think of Linda's writing and that's what you did very recently. You were not discussing the topic. The best thing for you to do is mind your own business and leave Linda alone. I'm sure she doesn't like you but I have never heard a word about you come from any of her posts. It is all coming from you. I think that you do have a very big problem. You don't like long messages but you wrote very long messages on that thread about Linda. I'm sick of the fact that unless someone agrees with you they were put up to it by Linda. I don't personally know her, but I saw what was said to her and she and others were reacting to that. You really thought that you should have said all of that to someone and that they would do nothing. That's not reality. I done nobody needs to say any more on this.


Hi yourself Robert,

The disciplines didn't come from Egypt thanks for bringing that up, a real debate. They did. Always use anonymous names if you're a racist coward. That's something everyone should know. Did I mention that I'm smarter than Linda, okay, what was I saying …oh yeah, what a dippy little argument. Did I say dippy I meant zippy? I bet he's off trying to figure out some really important problems with his sense of humor and intelligence. How many 5th graders did you prove you were smarter than today? Do all of the idiots follow you around to get the answers to these really important questions? Did I say I hate Linda today, Linda, Linda, Linda, I love that fake name. Have you looked at what all of the other post said about Egypt? What was I saying…something about Linda I'll bet, because I'm a lowlife time wasting moron. What is a discipline anyway? I think I will look that up in my dictionary. Oh, was I talking about Linda, I bet she doesn't know what too means. I hope this f*ck up the heads of the god-loving trash. I hope you don't think we don't like you just because you are full of crap. Honestly, I hate Linda she sucks. Did I say Linda sucks and I'm really smart? Good. I hope this doesn't interfere with listening to country music. I'll come back and talk about Linda some more after I grow some balls. But under a different name.

Take Care of your balls…If you can find them?

Nothing you have written is correct and your remarks are rip-offs of things said to you by Linda.

Hi everyone!

The pyramid texts are the oldest religious texts in the world. Anubis is known as Inpu, (variously spelled Anupu, Ienpw etc.). Anubis is the name for a jackal-headed god associated with mummification and the afterlife in Egyptian mythology.

The oldest known mention of Anubis is in the Old Kingdom pyramid texts (oldest religious texts in the world) where he is associated with the burial of the king. At this time, Anubis (god associated with the afterlife) was the most important god of the Dead, but Osiris replaced him during the Middle Kingdom.

The only thing in that post from that book is possibly who and what Barnel is and that Bernal thinks that ancient Greek culture was derived from Egypt. None of the quotes from the Greeks, the BBC broadcast or the Darnell finding the oldest writing in Egypt or Ugarit was remotely connected to that book.

The pyramids are one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Egyptians were experts in their field and able to build these mammoth landmarks to such a high level that it is beyond belief today.

Egypt was one of the greatest civilizations of the past. We do not know to this day how the pyramids were built, but we know the Greeks didn't build any pyramids. The Great Pyramid of Giza construction was completed in 2560BC it actually took 20 years to complete and remained the world's tallest structure for nearly 4,000 years.

All archeologists list Egypt among the countries that are the "cradle of civilization" but they are beginning to assess that more in favor of Egypt.

I think the posts you thrust into this discussion were answered completely.

Just trying to learn here, so any help would be appreciated. Do the Egyptian writings clearly pre-date the Harappan writings found in Pakistan and generally dated to -5500 CE? I was taught that the Harappan writings were the earliest known writings based on current this incorrect? Thanks much.

It was US scientists Yale University Egyptologist Dr John Darnell and his wife who found the letters in a Semitic language, carved in stone cliffs west of the Nile. He says they are nearly 4,000 years old, dating from around 1800 to 1900 BC. He believe they have found the earliest surviving alphabet in ancient Egyptian limestone inscriptions. The first Semitic alphabet was developed from hieroglyphs. He believes the letters may have been invented as a simplified version of an existing form of "cursive" or joined-up Egyptian pictographs, commonly used in ancient Egypt in graffiti. A number of experts agree that these inscriptions are the earliest alphabetic writing yet discovered and their location has forced a rethink on the origins of writing. This new evidence has prompted the theory that the development of alphabetic writing took place in Egypt itself, during the period of the Middle Kingdom. Dr Darnell believes that scribes among foreign mercenaries serving with the Egyptian army developed the simplified writing - initially through the work of hieroglyphic scribes who simplified the pictograms into a rudimentary alphabet for use by Semitic speakers.

The Harappan texts are 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' signs associated with a deity. One major problem in determining what the symbols mean is that no one understands the Indus language. It was unique and is now dead. Dr Meadow points out that nothing similar to the 'Rosetta Stone' exists for the Harappan text. "It's a big question as to if we can call what we have found true writing," he told BBC News. "So probably we will never know what the symbols mean," Dr Meadow told BBC News.

It also depends on what scholars and researchers call writing because this has not been proven to be an alphabet



Re: Harappan

I saw a tv program on this and the experts can not say that is writing. It is extremely doubtful that those symbols will ever be proven to be words or writing.

The original debate was about the disciplines coming out of Egypt. This is the same M.O. Arguing over something else when your original argument is proven wrong. Dig that name Gore1. Gore is that as in (Slaughter) I can hardly wait for Gore2 because nobody should answer it.


the reason why there are no roman records was because it was all burned down and destroyed. the roman empire destroyed everything. the bible is a very reliable source. i mean think about it in the new testament they have about 10 authors and not one of them contradict themselves. i mean thats a miracle on its own. so ofcourse the bible is reliable. and historians believe that 99.6 percent of the historical events in the new testament is true.

You should really double check your information. You have some important details very wrong - the most obvious and blatant is Jesus being born on December 25th. That date is nowhere - his birth is recorded as being in August. There are valid scientific proofs that support the historical Jesus even if you do not want to acknowledge a messianic Jesus. Your post is very misleading and fraught with error.

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