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Comparative Religion
The hypocrisy of religious debate.

Religions say they are called to dialogue with each other to better understand and promote tolerance. But they turn right around and declare that they cannot just strike a deal about god because they cannot compromise on the truth. Each religion proclaims it has that truth. Being called into dialogue would only mean that the believer of one religion will only try to convince and convert his interlocutor into accepting the "true" religion. This means that so-called religious dialogue is a hypocrisy leading to pseudo-dialogues of tolerance, understanding and universal love without ever any hope of compromise.

"My god is the real one because i believe in him". Since that is how they all think, you can stop any discussions or debates before you get too deep into it. Their confirmation bias is overwhelming, ignoring and stretching facts unavoidable, faith worth more than reality, babbling about irrelevant crap rather than answering questions etc.

In my opinion, if we really have to put up with religions, they should throw their books together, take whatever makes sense out of all of them, add new stuff, agree that god didn't say anything but they like to believe in him anyway, and just make a world wide religion of real peace, supporting science and making the world a better place. I could live with that, but not with the billions of brainwashed people around me, too many of them promoting intolerance and violence (to use understatements), closing their eyes to reality and whenever they get the chance, screwing up the progress that humanity is trying to make. If they merge their religions into a big fluffy one, i might even join!!

But i guess sometimes i am at least as delusional as they are for dreaming of a better world :)

Great idea Jayhennem. A new religion, containing only the good stuff from all the others, with a new 'god', the big invisible fluffy monster. I might even go for that. Thanks for the post.

Mr. Clovis, I disagree with you, although it may be true that some religions promote "tolerance" (however you define that because you have been ambigious in your proposition) not ALL do. Christianity certainly does not promote tolerance as you define it, in the sense that it does not call it adherents to compromise the truth of Christianity for any reason. As Christians we are commanded to share the gospel and willing do so, however, we are never called to compromise the truthfulness of scriptures. That leads me to something I propose to you just as you accuse other religions of "hypocrisy" for promoting tolerance in dialogue but are never willing to compromise their beliefs, you do the very same thing as an atheist. Your "lack of belief" in God as atheist is dishonest since all atheist really know God (Romans 1) and at the same time hypocritcal since, just like the people you claim to be hypocrites for promoting dialogue because they won't compromise their beliefs, you just the same are not at any time willing to compromise your own faith in Gods non-exsistence yet you are promoting dialogue by posting on a thread!!!

We are talking about intolerance, i am not sure if you got the term right.. like.. not tolerating other people, yes that is exactly what religions promote, you have to actually ignore your teachings to be tolerant of others, homosexuals just for instance. Also a great share of theists (if not most) are intolerant of other religions and i think especially intolerant of atheists. Somebody explained it to me like this: "Muslims are Allah fans, Christians are Yahweh fans, atheists think the game is stupid and don't play it at all, so they both don't like them, more than they dislike each other". That sounds very plausible to me. You are commanded to do much more than just share your Gospel or whatever, but you ignore the teachings that you dislike, and personally i am glad about it, but all in all, religious teachings and religions in general are very intolerant and promote stupidity and dishonesty, actually there even lying is promoted in both the bible and the Qur'an. You don't seem to understand the concept of atheism, atheism doesn't require ANY faith, merely logic and rational and critical thinking, instead of wishful thinking and irrational concepts fueled by imagination. You even say we all know God? Whatever your scripture says, Romans 1 you say? "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Clearly seen? Hallucinations are being dealth with medicine, delusional people should be in mental houses and not wield swords and slaughter people and burn witches. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." Thanks for what? For tormenting us with diseases? For making the entire universe hostile to life? For spreading the religious viruses over the world, murder, rape, violence, hatred, stupidity.. keeping humanity in the mud for a long time.. and no end in sight. All i see written there is BLABLABLABLA, i don't see God in there. Plain bullshit, your book is loaded with so much stupidity and idiotic blathering that it hurts.. truth? You suck your "truth" out of your fingers, and God's actions are simply things that were unexplainable for god's early followers (aka ancient illiterate uneducated gullible people) We don't even have to know what the scriptures say, (although many of us do) but did you read all the other "holy" books? Do you know what the Qur'an says? Do you know all the African Gods? Or the old Nordic ones? ETCETCETC! You are ignorant of all the other Gods, many of them much older than your own ridiculous version, yet you only believe in your own God and think the others will burn in hell and whatever.. I bet you didn't even have a choice, you were just thrown into your religion, if you were born into Islam, I am sure you would be talking about Allah and Muhammad now instead of Jesus. The fool says in his heart there is no God? Well we speak with our mouths and we think with our heads, and personally i think the ones who don't are the fools, the ones who live in dream worlds and think they are so special and that some invisible Sky Daddy created them like brainless toys to fight his wars and wanted them to stay stupid (remember Adam and Eve?). You should try applying logic and critical thinking too, my brain tells me there is no God and so far nobody managed to give me even a tiny little piece of evidence for their God without giving me hundreds of other facts which show me that it is bullsh!t. Nothing i saw or heard got me closer to any of your Gods, nothing that would be even halfway plausible. If God wants to show himself to us he is free to do so, but guess what, he didn't do it! If he wants me to do something he better tell me on his own instead of putting it in ancient books loaded with atrocities, contradictions, laws excluding each other, scientific errors showing me that the books are written by idiots who wanted to fool people to do what they wanted them to do. In short, we don't "know" God, we don't believe in him, and we don't need faith to not believe in him! We know that most people on this beautiful planet THINK there is something they call God (personally i think that is something in your heads, nowhere else to be found, just an imaginary friend), we stick to reality and wait for god to be a fact, if you ever give us FACTS that God exists and which one, i am sure that most atheists will accept it (i sure will). So far it is just some very stupid and cruel concept which is screwing up the Earth for millennia already. I think you just like to believe it because you are afraid to die, and even more because you were indoctrinated since you were little kids, you got "God" implanted into your heads, you believe if you don't stick with your religion you are going to be punished FOREVER and if you do stick to it you will get eternal orgasms in some super candy land.. That sounds utterly stupid to me to be honest. Again, you just THINK there is a god, you blindly believe it, but you don't KNOW it although many believers think they can call it knowledge, because it is written in some ancient books full of incoherent crap and lies. Your truth is incoherent bullshit.

I'd like to discuss it but dishonesty, ignorance and idiocy make it difficult to keep talking about it with most religious people without turning it into ridicule or without getting annoyed. Many atheists are open for a dialogue but the problems that we have are explained in this thread, you twist and stretch and adjust and ignore and demonstrate uncountable fallacies showing that your own faith is unjustified, i think that discussing "God" doesn't bring anything in most cases because you guys don't seem to be really fond of sticking to reality.

No, I'm not sure you got the term right, to quote Mr. Clovis, "Religions say that they are called to dialogue with each other to better understand and promote tolerance." What Mr. Clovis is accusing Christians (and I will only speak of and defend the Christian Religion because all other pseudo-religions contrary to Biblical religion are false) of being hypocrites because we are called to dialogue with people who are outside of our beliefs to "better understand and promote tolerance" (however he is defining "better understanding" and "tolerance" because he has been truly ambiguous in his terms) but are being "hypocritical" (a concept displayed in the title of his thread) because "they cannot compromise on the truth" (to quote Mr. Clovis) we want to discuss. However, Christianity never seeks dialogue with unbelievers (such as yourself and Mr. Clovis) to "better understand" you or "promote tolerance." God calls His people to dialogue with unbelievers for the purpose of spreading the truth of the gospel of Jesus (Matt. 4:23, Matt. 28:18-20, Acts 14:7, Eph. 6:19, Col. 1:5, 1 Thess. 2:4, 2 Tim. 1:8-14, 1 Peter 4:1-6). It is very important to God, and His people, that unbelievers (like yourself and Mr. Clovis) hear the gospel because through the preaching of the gospel people get saved from God's judgment by repenting of their sins and putting their faith in what God did for His people in His only Son Jesus Christ (Jesus life, death, and resurrection). You see, all people are sinners (Romans 3:23) and are born under the curse of sin (which explains your blatant rebellion, anger, and hatred for God); as a result of Adam and Eve's deliberate disobedience (as well as every person who as ever lived) in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:1-19, Hosea 6:7, Romans 5:12-14, 1 Corinthians 15:22) every human is under the judgment of God for breaking His Holy Law (Romans 7:12, Romans 3:10-20,23). God, therefore, is justified in judging and punishing His creation to eternal separation from Him (Hell) for breaking His commands and hating Him because of our sinful hearts. This IS REALITY, in which, you, myself, and every other human who has ever lived at any point in time, have to come to terms with (this is REALITY, and since I'm telling you the TRUTH about reality and believe it myself, I find it ironic that you think I "don't seem fond of sticking to reality," when it in FACT is you who are running from the reality of your situation before God, who, would therefore, have to exist for there to even be such a real thing as "reality" in the first place). However devastating, dark, and hopeless the human races situation before God is, alas there is hope for us! "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses…" (Eph. 2:4-5)! God, out of no obligation or coercion from anything or anyone but solely out of the purpose of His will (Eph. 1:5), grace (Eph 1:6), sent us His only Son, Jesus, our blessed savior and the ONLY savior and hope for mankind, "…that whoever (this means you!) believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). The reason it is only faith in Jesus that can save you is for the FACT that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14), He never broke Gods Law but was the fulfillment and end of the Law (Romans 10:4), and therefore, is the only one qualified and able (since it is a divine task that was given to Jesus and Jesus alone-Eph. 1:7-14, Matt. 1:20-23, Mark 1:10-11, Luke 1:31-33, John 5:19-24). Jesus is our only hope and those who put their trust in Jesus will not come under God's righteous judgment because Christ sacrificed His life, died, and rose to life again; in so doing, making reconciliation between God and man possible. You know, in your rant against God (thus proving His existence), and in general when talking to atheist as much as I do, I hear the terms "logic" and "critical thinking" and "reason" as if these concepts are exclusive to the atheist worldview. Let me tell you something, concepts such as "logic," "reason," or "critical thinking" don't exist in the atheist worldview. That is not to say that atheist don't reason or use logic or engage in critical thinking; it is to say, though, that these concepts CANNOT exist in nor can they be accounted for or justified in atheism as a philosophical system of thought. How in the world can atheism as a system of thought, which views the world as purely atomistic (meaning that everything that is breaks down into subatomic particles randomly banging together because of the "laws" of physics) account for or even have such things as "logic," "reason," or "morals?" These concepts, which are very REAL (just like you anger against God is real), cannot exist in a purely atomistic universe such as atheism. The "laws of logic," "reason," and "morals" are immaterial and abstract in nature being that they are concepts. These concepts do not break down into atoms therefore, clearly disproving atheism as system of thought. Talk about hypocrisy, it is the pinnacle of human arrogance and irrationality to make a claims about and appeal to such concepts as "logic" and "reason" for a system of thought that is completely void of such concepts (including "concepts" in and of themselves). Atheism, as a philosophical system of thought (not the people who adhere to atheism), is an ethically bankrupt, philosophically incoherent, and metaphysical (reality) impossibility. To believe in atheism as a system of thought is to commit epistemological (basis for knowledge) suicide, because there can be NO SUCH THING AS KNOWLEDGE in a purely atomistic way of interpreting the world. It is only the Christian worldview that provides the necessary preconditions, or presuppositions, that allow for such abstract immaterial entities such as "logic," "reason," and "morals" to exist. It is only the Christian worldview that can provide logical and rational answers for how these types of concepts can exist, therefore, proving the existence of God through the "impossibility of the contrary." Meaning, the only way that "logic" could philosophically exist, since it is an immaterial abstract entity, is for there to be an immaterial abstract "law giver" from whence they came. Since logic, reason, knowledge, and morals exist, therefore God exist. Every other worldview contrary to Christianity is philosophically contradicting or altogether incoherent (as in the case of atheism) and does not allow for such concepts to exist. Ah, but you say "I'm an atheist and I use logic and I am moral!" Yes you do, and I would agree (although atheist don't utilize these tools when it comes time to critique their own worldview) but my point is atheism, as a philosophical system, cannot account for, justify, or provide any logical and rational answers for were these immaterial abstract entities such as the "laws of logic," "reason," and "morals" COME from (as where they find their origin). You say you want evidence? I just gave you some, but if you don't believe me go look outside. Consider the beauty of the sky when the sun rises and sets or the billions of different colors God uses to paint the sky and the ocean, or the trillions of cells that must work together in simultaneous harmony (at which point all had to exist for them to even work, thus disproving evolution-refer to "the irreducible complexity" geneticist are promulgating) in the human body. Who looks at the Empire state building and says, "No one built that! And further, He must be and idiot!"? No one who applied a little common sense, or logic or reason would say that. Who looks at a painting and says, "No one painted that! It just came from nowhere and anyone who thinks to the contrary is a stupid, irrational, illogical, delusional, gullible, ignorant, and blind idiot!"? No one says that! Yet atheism as a worldview makes such claims when it interprets the world in which it lives and says "there is no good God!" You want to talk about Romans 1? Atheist sure don't use hammers and tools to carve out of wood images of God that look like birds or man, no, they are much more sophisticated than that, they use the razors of their mind to form concepts as "reason" and "logic" and "science" as their God. You say it "doesn't take ANY faith to be an atheist," I beg to differ. You want evidence? What kind are you looking for rational or empirical? I have given you both. You seem to imply in your comment that you want empirical evidence (taste, touch, see, hear, smell), well let me ask you something, have you ever seen, tasted, touched, heard, or smelled logic, reason, beauty, truth, goodness, evil, stupidity? No you have not, yet you believe in them and rely on them, sounds like faith to me! You see atheist lives on "borrowed capital" (to quote Dr. Van Till), every unbeliever must rely upon the Christian worldview in order to critique the Christian worldview, since only the Christian worldview provides the philosophical answers that can describe where and how such concepts as logic and reason exist; thus the atheist has to "borrow" from the Christian worldview in order to attack it. I find it beyond my mental capacity to be able to understand that kind of irony. Logic, reason, beauty, truth, evil, these are simply words we use as humans to describe immaterial abstract concepts that no doubt exist. Further, if you were even able to test logic, as a something that can be verifiably proven through empirical observation as you suggest, you would have to utilize logic in order to test it! There is no escaping the image of God in which you were made in (Genesis 1:26-27). You seem pretty sure of your worldview; well let's see if atheism can provide some rational and logical answers that I have for you. Where does logic come from? Where do morals come from? What is beauty? What is truth? At best you will only be able to give me subjective and arbitrary answers derived from the professors, no doubt, that convinced you of such an incoherent worldview as atheism. Relative morality will always be and has always been the "Achilles heel" of such an illogical way of interpreting the world. You don't like Gods standards? Well why are yours better? And how can you even have such a thing as a "standard" or "norms" in a purely atomistic universe. You see if you displace the God of the bible you only replace Him with yourself, but to do so is to commit the same sin Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden, they wanted to be "like Him" by disobeying His command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil (Genesis 2:17) and instead be a "law" or "standard" unto themselves. "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Psalm 14:1), don't mistake the bible for merely engaging in name calling (something most atheist seem to be experts at), this verse is describing a way of thinking that knows something is true and is clearly evident (the existence of the God of the bible) but embraces a lie (something Adam and Eve did) and thinks that its smart to do so. Do not believe a lie, repent and trust in Christ, and you will have eternal life.

"It is very important to God, and His people, that unbelievers (like yourself and Mr. Clovis) hear the gospel because through the preaching of the gospel people get saved from God's judgment by repenting of their sins and putting their faith in what God did for His people in His only Son Jesus Christ (Jesus life, death, and resurrection)."

God doesn't exist, or at least you don't have a tiny piece of evidence pointing towards God, you don't know god, you have no idea what he thinks if he exists and you have no clue what he wants, you only know what your stupid book says and your brain washers. It is only important to the churches to spread the pseudo truth to get new victims to join the ranks of the gullible sheep who are paying and working for all the "fun". In the past people like you were burning witches, stoning people, fighting wars in the name of "god" etc, nowadays that is not so common but still people do the same things.. all because of religions. However, you are simply pawns and victims in a wicked game started by people who rotted away long ago and you are turning everybody around you into victims as well.

"You see, all people are sinners (Romans 3:23) and are born under the curse of sin (which explains your blatant rebellion, anger, and hatred for God); as a result of Adam and Eve's deliberate disobedience (as well as every person who as ever lived) in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:1-19, Hosea 6:7, Romans 5:12-14, 1 Corinthians 15:22) every human is under the judgment of God for breaking His Holy Law (Romans 7:12, Romans 3:10-20,23)."

Sorry but you are an idiot if you believe this. Really true. there are even plenty theologeans who say that Adam and Eve were just a stupid story and nothing else, if you believe such moronic parts of the bible you are even more of a gullible sheep than i thought. Seriously? God creates the universe out of less than thin air but then he needs some dirt and a rib to create the humans? And the all knowing god doesn't know what will happen? And the all loving God needs to punish all humanity for a fruit? Sounds really just and fair.. oh wait.. the words i was looking for were IDIOTIC and PSYCHOPATHIC. I am born without any sins, sins don't even exist, i don't need your ancient book to tell me how to behave, i can do that even better without it. What you are talking about is just a concept from religions to make gullible people like you think that they are scum and need to drop on their knees and beg their imaginary friends for forgiveness and go to the church to leave more money and get their blessings and whatever. And if you think somebody WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IN GOD can hate god, you are really not getting the concept of atheism, i can't hate something that doesn't exist, try hating NOTHING, that would be the same.

"This IS REALITY, in which, you, myself, and every other human who has ever lived at any point in time, have to come to terms with (this is REALITY, and since I'm telling you the TRUTH about reality and believe it myself, I find it ironic that you think I "don't seem fond of sticking to reality," when it in FACT is you who are running from the reality of your situation before God, who, would therefore, have to exist for there to even be such a real thing as "reality" in the first place)."

Do you know what reality is? What you are talking about is some weird dreamworld that you were sucked into since you were born. If you open your eyes, all that doesn't exist, so it is not real, so you are delusional. If you ask me, you could use a good shrink or few months in some mental house to learn the concept of REALITY.

To be honest.. i saw enough, i won't even bother to respond to the rest, you are a hopeless case. Enjoy your dreamworld.

Cheers.

I'm seriously confused? You said if someone were to present "facts that God exist" you were "sure that most atheist would accept it (I sure will)." So I presented a clear case for the existence of God to you, yet, you didn't acknowledge one shred of evidence that I gave you for either accepting or rejecting the God of the bible. You and all your fellow atheist comrades are so pseudo-sure of God's non-existence, yet you have provided no evidence against God's non-existence whatsoever! You take it on BLIND FAITH! Wait, "BLIND" is the wrong word, "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been CLEARLY PERCEIVED, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. For although THEY (this means you) KNEW God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." (Romans 1:19-21). There is no need to apologize to me I already know you think I'm an idiot (thus disproving your claim that you don't "hate God" because you "can't hate something that doesn't exist"). If you really didn't believe in God you wouldn't be wasting your time, nor, be as passionately disrespectful with me in your comments as you have been, but, since you do believe in Him and are trying to "suppress the truth" (Romans 1:18) and I'm the one who is bringing it back to your conscience, it makes sense that would be a natural response for you. Nobody gets as mad as you about something that doesn't really exist; nobody calls other people "idiots" who believe in the "flying spaghetti monster" (to use Dawkins ignorant, ridiculous, and fallacious analogy). It seriously scares mere to an extent (from a mortal perspective) that people like you want to put Christians in a mental hospital, because that's probably what you would do if you had the chance. But I'm not afraid OF YOU, I am afraid FOR YOU though, don't believe the lies of this world, one day you are going to die and stand before your creator and have to give an account for every single solitary thought, word, or deed. If you have not put your faith in Christ, His sacrifice will be no good for you because you will have rejected it. God will be judge on that day, not the loving Father and King to welcome you into His arms and eternal Kingdom. There will be eternal torment in Hell, unquenchable fire, and infinite agony, despair, and torture. Why!!! Why would you want that!!??? I beg you! I know you think I am an idiot, but please reconsider! Please don't choose the broad road! God says He will forgive us if we place our trust in Jesus Christ, why would you reject that?? I feel for you man, I know you think I'm a "hopeless case" but I don't think you are, not because of anything in you, but because of God's unlimited power to convert even the hardest of hearts as your own. I will be praying for you. Place, your trust in Jesus today! You don't know when you will meet God, for tomorrow is not promised. I have dedicated my life to reach every atheist, agnostic, and unbeliever that I can possibly speak to with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, if only to reach one. I will never cease so long as I live and breath, and I pray that I get to see your conversion one day, if not though, I can say with a clear conscience that I warned you. Please reconsider. May God bless you with the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

You presented blathering from the bible as the truth, even the utterly ridiculous story of Adam and Eve which was plagiarised from other religions. That is the point where i give up. Can I use the "Alibaba and the 40 thieves" to prove to you the existence of the Sesame? Or would you actually want to see the cave and how it opens when i say "Open Sesame"? The bible saying that it is true doesn't surprise me, what does surprise me that people like you want ME to blindly accept the idiocy in there. Then let me make few things clear.

1) I do not get mad about God, that would be ridiculous, i get mad about religions and what they do, latest example for me my country, where Christians screwed up the country along with their own country because of religions.. and the religious penis measuring won't let it even start to recover for already almost 2 decades after the war is over. I am quite sick of talking about it so look up the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina if you really care, just like old times, genocide rape and so on. I get mad at religions and the intolerance, hatred, murder and idiocy that it is spreading, forcing ridiculous world views and laws onto humanity, God has nothing to do with it directly, your imaginary friend is just being used as a justification, he/she/it isn't the reason, the cause or the end for ANYTHING. Even if there is/was some sort of supernatural being, it most certainly isn't the author of that ancient stupid book that you hold so dear, or any other book for that matter, and if the books were inspired by such a being, and if the world as i see it is the result of some attention and love seeking, tantrum throwing, psychopathic puppet master, it would be a reason for me to rebel rather than worship it/him/her/them.

2)I am wasting my time, that much for sure, but i love this planet and the humans on it, it hurts me to see what religions do with humanity and even with nature itself, it hurts me so much that i have to speak up, luckily i am allowed to. When religions were much stronger, speaking up against them would pretty much ensure my death or isolation or any sort of punishment, say.. exorcism? Of course we can't all simply watch and endure the atrocities and terror spread by religion's gullible muppets, when you see a demented person you might want to try to hep them, that is what i am doing here.

3) get it straight, i do not believe in him or her or them, i really don't, and a real atheist doesn't believe in god, seeing how you fail to accept that there are really people who don't give a f**k about your teachings and hold your truth to be idiocy and delusional crap, your gods to be imaginary friends for adults, makes me laugh at you, on the other hand it makes me pity you, and a mixture of the 2 makes me angry, because i am really helpless. You are violating human rights by putting a stamp on kids as soon as they are born, you shape them into your religion and bash the critical and reasonable thinking out of their heads and prepare tem to be "God's little arrogant intolerant soldiers", you even do that with good intention!! Which is why i suggested medication or a therapy, delusions and sociopatic behavior are being dealt with in mental houses or private sessions with shrinks. From the depth of my heart, i feel for you and wish you well, which is why i would like to see you open your eyes to reality, all of you mislead and delusional victims of the religious virus. It pains me to see children being brain washed as soon as they start talking.. science and medicine being fought and moronic bronze age superstition drummed into people's heads.

4)Stop quoting the Bible to convince people, it is ridiculous, no matter which passage you read from it, it was is and will always be ridiculous. Take some modern books and read those, there you can learn much more about the world, about other people, about healthcare, morality, about everything. You don't need that morbid fiction to learn about life and about yourself. You don't even need it to believe in God! Your belief is a patchwork from cherry picked verses, interpreted and ignored contradictions and idiotic stories, there is no valuable knowleedge for modern humans in there, would be great if you realize that. If you really need some imaginary friend, make one up like people used to do in the past. Your God is the result of many people's imagination and a "survivor" and killer of many other gods. But if you have to sleep with the book under the pillow and read it every day, at least spare people like me with the stupidity in there, for we really don't care, i promise you we don't. We heard it often enough, i can quote half the bible and the other half i know when i start reading. I read it, got a bit mad about what people used to believe, was shocked what they still believe, and had a good laugh when i analysed it and took it into consideration. No matter what you read from the book, it won't change my opinion.This is how i see your book. http://www.tinyurl.com/cannotbuyit

Evidence? I don't want your God's ridiculous bestseller, show me God, show me Jesus, show me wonders, show me Giants, show me the tower of Babel, show me amputees growing back limbs, show me people without eyes seeing again due to prayers or somebody laying a hand on them or something like that, show me people walking on water, show me people drinking poison and surviving it like Jesus promised, show me people coming out of their graves and greeting people in my city, such things! Show me God creating a planet, show me real miracles, that is what i would count as evidence, not some contradicting bullshit in some old book, loaded with made up stories and idiocy stolen from other books. That doesn't prove anything to a rationally thinking person. You say people in the past had all the proof they needed, well, that is not a reason for ME to buy it. And the sad part is.. like i said, if you would prove all that being true... (what you will never be able to do just like everybody else for as long as humans will roam this world, or at least for as long as they live in dreamworlds like you do).. if you prove all that to be true.. I might believe in your God, but i wouldn't love or respect him, i don't see any reason to do so. The way your god was depicted in the bible is shocking, i would rather accept the biblical Satan than the biblical God, Satan is a cute little puppy compared to God. Go and see how many people God killed and how many Satan killed. I don't know how many millions of "his children" god slaughtered and "blessed" with bowel diseases and plagues and so on, but Satan killed 2, after god allowed him to do so.. And it gets worse.. god won't even let you go when you die, you will be judged and punished forever if he decides you don't meet his ridiculous standards.. then you are screwed foreverandeverandever. And last but not least, ask yourself, what is it that you love and worship, was it really your own choice to love and fear and worship it? I think it is it just great that there is absolutely no proof for it to exist in REALITY. Yes reality, that is where i live, you should give it a try.

I thought you saw enough Jay? What made you come back for more?

He admitted that he is confused, that is one big step towards gaining knowledge, well, normally! haha :)

While i know that it doesn't really matter what I toss at him, he pretty much dead sure will never concede even the most basic point if it doesn't agree with his belief system... but I thought I owe him an explanation for at least few of the things that he got so naively wrong.

I admitted that I was confused for the fact that you said that if a Christian produced evidence that God did exist you would readily believe them. So I brought forth rational and empirical evidence that God does exist (I might add that through our entire discussion you have not provided one bit of evidence that God doesn't exist and you have not critiqued any of the arguments that I have provided). You have simply stated that God doesn't exist because you don't WANT Him to exist. All you have engaged in is ridicule and subjective expression of what you don't LIKE about the Triune Christian God and that you don't WANT Him to exist. That is not a rational or logical way to argue for or believe anything thing that you said in your messages, you simply assert subjective opinions without giving any evidence of WHY God doesn't exist. I can sympathize with this because it is evident that you have not thoroughly critiqued you own worldview. Further, I offer the reason that you have simply asserted you own subjective opinion because in the Atheist worldview all that exist is subjective because there is no objective truth in atheism. As it stands, and as so clearly evident in our discussion, atheism as a worldview is irrational, illogical, and is merely subjective in nature. Therefore to argue in favor of atheism would be an engage in a refutation of your own position because all positions (even theism) in an atheist worldview are subjective with no one position being objectively true. Do you have an answer for this dilemma?

Yes, very simple answer. What you do is called appeal to emotion, many religious people resort to that fallacy most of the time when they talk to people who don't share their childish but very dangerous belief (mainly appeal to cosequences, appeal to fear, appeal to ridicule along with a straw men army that you like to bash ruthlessly, and wishful thinking).

Just a question, your empirical and rational evidence is the Bible and "well it feels right so it must be true"? Just a hint, circular reasoning never works well… "The bible is true because the bible says it's true" is utmost ridiculous, nothing else. Also seeing God "everywhere" is more of a persecution mania than it can be considered "looking for proof in reality and following the evidence wherever it leads".

Finally, I hope you do know what a burden of proof is...? It basically means, if you make a claim (for instance, there is a magical cosmic curtain twitcher up in heaven and if you don't believe that he killed his own son as a blood sacrifice in order to make up for your sins 2000 years before you were born, you are going to burn in some imaginary place called hell foreverandeverandever after you die, although his son actually resurrected just 3 days later as a divine zombie and beamed up to heaven to wait for few thousands of years to come back later and screw up the whole world and bring your "soul" to a magical candy land where you will have a perpetual orgasm until the end of time. In case you accept the zombie as your savior of course!! Otherwise you know.. you go to the basement to burn forever like mentioned before! ..and such things), then it is up to you to prove your claims to be true, an old book written by ancient superstitious slave driving murdering pedophiles won't do the job, empty threats and promises even less.

Seriously, you can't expect me to prove the non-existence of your imaginary friend, because other than contradicting concepts, scientific errors like.. flat earth.. melting snails, pillars supporting the sky which is actually some firm roof etc... and lots of idiocy and atrocities (and there are plenty of all of those) there is no way to do that, and you even fail to realize how ridiculous and mutually exclusive the biblical concepts and the concept "God" is altogether, no matter how demonstrably wrong it is.

However, try to prove to me that my imaginary friend Fred doesn't exist in reality, he is a guy who wears a blue hat all the time but he is invisible. Please try just to prove his non-existence, just that one example. You might (should) realize that it is impossible, instead, the burden of proof is on me when it comes to Fred.

When it comes to God, the burden of proof is on you, and the proof better be good, considering the extraordinary claims that you make. But don't forget, some incoherent nonsense from an old book won't do the job, threats of hell and promising me the perfect afterlife in heaven won't do the job, "warm feelings" won't do the job either, if I want that I can pee my pants, that brings less problems than the religious virus.

Jay, when did I ever say "well it feels right it must be true?" Never once did I say I believe in God because of some emotional response. For you to categorize me in this position is not merely oversimplifying or misleading, it is simply MISTAKEN and FALSE. I have never confirmed the objective truth of Gods existence in our discussion by basing it on something so subjective and irrelevant as "emotion" (emotion, I would argue, actually doesn't exist in the atheist worldview as a philosophical system because emotion is immaterial and abstract in nature which is something that atheism cannot account for because all that exist in the atheist worldview is matter in motion). So for you to argue against this position is ultimately in VAIN because I do not hold this position. It is YOU, in fact, that is guilty of the "Straw man" argument; YOU are the one who displays my position as something that IT IS NOT and then you argue against that FALSE position and seek to refute it. The burden of proof is not merely "on me," the fact is that God has already given you evidence through what has been made (remember Romans 1?) but you have REJECTED it. As a Christian, I am presenting a defense against your specific objections against His CLEAR existence by pointing out the philosophical contradictions and incoherency of "atheism" as a worldview. If you will go back and study the argument that I have presented you would know this. You, however, are not interested in arguments or proof, for you have already decided that all proofs that I present are false (here you commit what's called the "pretended neutrality fallacy"). You are not "neutral" on the subject of God's existence any more that I am not "neutral" on it. All worldviews have "assumptions" and these assumptions govern how a person knows what he knows (epistemology), how they live their lives and what they value (ethics), and how the interpret reality (metaphysics). You already believe God doesn't exist and you take that underlying assumption or presupposition and interpret the rest of your world through this assumption. So, of course all of the evidence you see will point to the non-existence of God, because that is what your most basic assumption (side note: this basic assumption that God doesn't exist is an unproven one to begin with) requires you to believe. My point is, you charge me for the crime of "circular reasoning" but, in fact, it is you who is doing the very same thing. If you say that REASON or EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE is the only way to "prove" something to be true, then, the ASSUMPTION (something unproven) there is that REASON can be trusted to bring you to truth. It is the STANDARD or CRITERIA in which you determine truth. BUT HOW DO YOU PROVE "REASON" OR "EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE" IS THE ONLY WAY TO PROVE ANYTHING? You can't!!! If you say "reason" proves "reason" then you engage in the very same crime of "circular reasoning" that you accuse me of! Further, to say that the God of the Bible, indeed, DOES not exist is to make a statement that "supposedly" is "true" in YOUR worldview. This claim, extraordinary and infinite in scope, requires just as much evidence as mine does!!

However, if we are to have a more fruitful debate we need to ask specific questions about our particular worldviews instead of generalizing our positions with others. In order to get to the heart of each others worldviews and to point out the irrationality of atheism as a worldview, I purpose you ask me specific questions and I will ask you specific questions. Ok?

Question 1: Is it your position that there is objective truth and right and wrong in the world?

To answer your question, there are logical absolutes that don't depend on the beholder, meaning that yes there is objective truth but not in the way you obviously mean it. Something is something and it is not what it is not. I go from there. I know that 1+1 = 2 no matter if there is anybody to think about it. If 1 meteor hits another that were 2 meteors and not 3 or whatever. That much is true whenever and wherever it happens. Does that have anything to do with God? Not in my book.

And please google appeal to emotion, it is not merely "feel good stuff", it includes several logical fallacies.. Appeal to consequences, Appeal to fear, Appeal to flattery, Appeal to pity, Appeal to ridicule, Appeal to spite and Wishful thinking. Appeal to ridicule in an extreme form can be straw manning and appeal to ignorance (also called argumentum ad ignorantiam), which is another logical fallacy that you have been using a lot here. Check it out too and you might understand why i am getting annoyed with your arguments. I will give you an example from somebody who i talked to few weeks ago. We were talking about evolution and the big bang theory: "Unlike delusional Darwinist, I do not believe that bombs cause dinosaurs to transform into chickens, or apes into man. Show me where the big bang THEORY or THEORY of evolution are talked about in the Bible and we can have a debate. Otherwise, your point is moot. Good day." Lets ignore for a fact that i find it utmost ridiculous for somebody to cling to the "word of god" written by ancient ignorant superstitious sheep herders and drunkards instead to take a GOOD look at "god's creation" aka reality and the knowledge that we collected throughout millennia.

There is a double appeal to ignorance and appeal to ridicule out of ignorance. To see the problem here, one must first understand that "Darwinists" or "evolutionists" don't have much to do with the big bang, if anything. That the big bang is not an explosion as such but our understanding of the inflationary model that we observe as the "evolution of the universe". The name Big Bang (theory) comes from Fred Hoyle as another appeal to ignorance and ridicule, quote from wiki: "Fred Hoyle is credited with coining the term Big Bang during a 1949 radio broadcast. It is popularly reported that Hoyle, who favored an alternative "steady state" cosmological model, intended this to be pejorative, but Hoyle explicitly denied this and said it was just a striking image meant to highlight the difference between the two models." It was not a bomb which caused dinosaurs to transform into chickens... it is the scientific theory based on observation of the universe which explains the forming of galaxies stars and planets (unlike the story of the creation, quite accurately). Then we have to understand that a scientific theory is not simply some theory that somebody sucked out of their fingers, but something backed up by facts and empirical studies, unlike the story of creation in the bible (as one of 2 in just that book, and one of MANY in general). Now lets get back to you.. you seem to have a problem understanding atheism, where you appeal to ignorance and ridicule all the time. Atheism is NOT a world view, it is merely the rejection of theistic world views. I don't even have to know what evolution or the big bang or ANYTHING is, to not believe in god and your dogma. Atheism, per definition, is the rejection of belief in God(s). As simple as that. Not more and not less. Doesn't even mean we all say there is no god, but that we don't believe it. What world view somebody actually holds, is not possible to be determined merely from their rejection of belief in god(s). You would do good if you understand that.

Now back to the fruitful conversation and questions. If you believe a book without having any factual evidence to back it up, how can you be SURE that your God is the real deal? Why aren't you a Muslim? I mean is there anything that would convert you to Christianity in a highly islamic country with Muslim parents and islamic dogma and an entirely Muslim social environment? Don't forget, their god is the god of Abraham as well and their doctrine is not that much different from yours, just that they still promote misogyny to a ridiculous extent and reject eating pork, still do circumcision etc, of course there are many differences too but their basic belief is actually more true to the biblical teachings than the modern Christian traditions.. So why don't you convert to Islam? They use many of the same reasons to "prove" their belief to be true and they have ZILCH factual evidence just like you. There "are" like 10000 Gods known to humanity nowadays, who knows how many there were in the past.. most of them much older than your version and they all believed at least as much as you do now. My actual question (in case i asked too many) is... What makes your belief so special? Given that you have nothing to back it up aside from an old book and indoctrination (that i experience as a form of ruthless brain washing), just like many others nowadays and others had before your religious ancesters "killed" their gods and burned their books and converted them by force. How sure are you that you are not delusional and that you ALL were wrong and actually there is no god at all? Ever considered that seriously? To avoid a counter question, yes i did consider the alternative to atheism, much more than you for sure, since i was born in a mixed marriage between Muslim and Christian and was raised in a highly religious social environment, dragged between and agressively influenced by 2 religions. also many atheists were believers for many decades what means that they believed as strong as you do now before they gave their belief a thorough analysis and realized that there is not a single rational reason to believe it AFTER they already believed it. I came to the same conclusion without ever being "under the religious spell". But trust me, i gave it a good chance.. it just wouldn't sink in.. thankfully.

The essence of what makes my belief so "special" (as you put it) is that my belief in the Triune God of the Bible as revealed in the old and new testaments is completely TRUE. Further, the knowledge of God is a gift of God Himself (Eph. 2:5)

If I were to be born in a Muslim society following their belief system, the only thing that would convert me to Christianity would be the power of the Holy Spirit enabling me to believe through me hearing the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:18). That is how converts are made.

My second question to you:

If God does not exist, and moral and logical absolutes do exist, where do these moral and logical absolutes come from?

About the logical absolutes, they have nothing to do with god, they are absolutes, i don't have to know where they came from (they were always existent we just adapt to them). For the sake of the argument lets assume there is a god.. he can't make 1+1=3 unless he adds another 1. If you think he can, PROVE IT. But keep in mind, wishful thinking is no proof. I accept only hard facts. Some verse saying "god can do everything" from your book won't make it true, i hope you realize that i can only laugh about such arguments or alternatively get sad that they are enough to convince people like you.

And lets get one thing straight.. there are no moral absolutes, our morality comes through evolution, humans as a species live in societies and our intellect made it possible for us to create and follow certain rules, more than the average baboon family (who also follow some rules that they learned through co-existence and adapting to the environment). Some of them preserve our survival directly, some make it easier to live together and avoid conflicts which could endanger our survival. Some of them just make it easier to enjoy life, but they are not the same for everybody.

In my book it is barbaric to chop off a part of a child's genitalia, in some religious communities it is perfectly normal.. moreover it is a must, it is also in the Bible, some parts demand it some condemn it from what i remember. And such contradictions (that is just one of hundreds) make your "COMPLETELY TRUE" nonsense from the bible even more ridiculous since there is too much contradiction and laws excluding each other.. So you have to cherry pick your belief or accept whatever some authority cherry picked before you.. I wonder how you make a difference. Like.. love your neighbor, but hate on homosexuals? Ridiculous. In my book it is also inhumane to keep your wives as sex slaves and baby factories, Christians and Jews did it for millennia and Muslims still do it in large numbers. You should know what your Bible says about that. Anyway, God has nothing to do with it, those are things that humans use and abuse in their favor, just like the do with "god".

However, there is no objective morality and when some very logical and "universal" rules emerge with time and "set foot" in humanity (like that very simple concept "don't kill" that your book doesn't respect with all the genocides and stonings), it doesn't mean that some lamp Genie or your imaginary friend created them, if you think they did, prove it without quoting the Bible, i don't believe what it says.

Not all rules are the same for all people but some of them are based on pure logic and survival, rest on experience and doctrine, again, that has nothing to do with God in my book.

I still have to go back to your beliefs.. What about illiterate people? They can't read and if you tell them to convert you might get into troubles. And what about Muslim communities that don't even have a bible available for the average Joe (or Jamal), you really think you would give a rat's ass about the Bible if you were a 100% believing Muslim? I guarantee you, you wouldn't. Do you really think that the incoherent nonsense in the bible is so attractive to people who were brain washed to believe something else? Think again. But lets say you are right.. What about people from other countries where no missionaries set foot yet? People who never came in contact with anybody from different beliefs and couldn't read your book if you gave it to them? If you were born there, you would believe in a flying frog called Hamumpta or whatever.. how would Jesus reach you there? My point is.. You suck the "truth" out of some old book that you got put in the cradle.. how do you know it's REALLY true and why does God need a book at all to show his presence to the world? I mean they had their miracles all the time.. splitting seas, healing the blind, virgin births, people spending time in some fish for 3 days etc etc, you get Jesus' face on a toast.. is that all that is left from the old divine glory? What makes your belief true ASIDE from the stuff written in the book? Because as i said, there are many things written.. your book is only special because you grew up reading it and you find it to be true.. others don't (me included), and many people never get to read your book or laugh their butt off when they start reading it. To shorten it and make it more simple to answer.. What do you have to convince me ASIDE from the book? Even better, what do you take as a reason to believe aside from the book yourself?

Jay, you go on and on about scientific fallacies of the Bible.

You mentioned flat earth and melting snails, can you a reference a part of the Bible where you see such things?

Also, which one of the authors of the Bible was a pedophile?

Mr. Jay, I find it interesting that you "might" believe in God, after having seen all those miracles. Why would you not believe immediately?

And though you may believe the God of the Bible, after all those miracle, you would not accept His Son?

Would you choose Heaven over Hell?

The Bible is explicit, that there were many who saw such miracles but didn't believe; ultimately because man's sin blinds him from the truth. That is why we answer the call of the Holy Spirit, knocking on our heart of hearts.

I know you're up in arms against Christ, but just be honest to your Father in Heaven. He's listening and he'll reveal Himself to you through His Son!

well read my summary.. i can't write it all the time. http://tinyurl.com/cannotbuyit

First of all, my father is not in heaven, he is neither astronaut nor pilot. Second, i find it absurd to accept some psychopath's blood sacrifice for "my sins" before i was even born? Are you guys completely nuts? And i am not "in arms against Christ" i think you got something wrong, i don't believe any of that bullshit, i am only against people who shove it down children's throats and cause psychological damage and screw up humanistic and scientific progress that few of us are trying to make in the name of your imaginary friends. Why would i have a hard time accepting YOUR God after i see some miracles? Because: a)there are too many gods around, i am born in a Muslim country, shouldn't i accept Allah over your version of God? Of course not according to you. Some hindu might want me to accept Shiva or whatever.. And some people back in time would want me to accept Odin or Wotan or whatever.. Also some UFO nutjob might say it were aliens.. how can i be sure its Yahweh? I am not so quick with making up answers, i want them to be as accurate and probable as possible before i accept them, unlike you guys obviously. And spare me with your "sin makes you blind" crap. I might be a better human being than any of you and you would still give me crap because i don't accept your Zombie Lord as my savior. Who's stories were by the way just some work of fiction, plagiarised from Homer's Odyssey.

Mr. Jay, I appreciate your honesty but you didn't answer one of my questions. Please revert back to my previous posts fpr said questions.

You mentioned you may be a better person than most, what makes someone a good person as opposed to bad?

You posted that link, well I have one that I would like to hear your opinion on.

Please checkout www.180movie.com. Its only 30 min but please watch the whole thing. I'm curious to know your thoughts on the manner.

"matter" not "manner"

I will watch the movie as soon as i find the time. About your unanswered questions.. I guess you mean "which one of the writers was a pedophile"? Well to my understanding, people back then were pedophiles. I honestly can not accept anybody today to sleep with little girls and take them as their wives.. Especially the combination makes it horrible, sleep with them (rape them) and then force them into marriage, what is even written as a law. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) There are also morbid things about rape victims, they would get stoned to death. Virgins were kept as a prize after slaughtering entire cities.. If those people were divinely inspired then they shouldn't have done things that are wrong on many levels to our (or specifically my) understanding. And if it really is/was the will of god, then thanks but no thanks.

Anyway i am really busy at the moment so i won't watch the movie now and comment on it, but i also won't forget to do it. However, it would be really great if you could address some of the points that i made when you find the time.

Thanks in advance.

Holy crap.. you really want me to comment on that garbage from Bananaman? Well here is the summary of what i have to say about that.. it is the most dishonest and disgusting way to force your opinion down people's throat and extort money from them along with violence and indoctrination of children.. Aside from the fact that some were definitely reading their answers from cards (what you can even see if you check the glasses of that blonde chick, Alicia i think), Ray was spewing around really feculent fallacies and idiocy knowing how dishonest and self refuting it is.. because it was pointed out to him way too many times and is really obvious.. for somebody who will consider it critically at least. I watched the whole thing and now i would like you to read something about that movie on rational wiki: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/180

Please don't listen to bananaman.. anything he says can impair the intelligence of people who happen to hear it.

Dear Jayhennem. "God does not exist". I have read some very intellectual theories and arguments on this site. However, I do have one question, forgive me if it has been covered before but I could not find the thread if so. If God does not exist, then how did the fleeing Israelites survive their time in the wilderness? I have read that there were some 1.5-3 million people involved in the exodus and additionally, a large number of animals. Knowing some little bit about keeping troops watered, fed, clothed and healthy in a hostile environment, I suspect there had to be some kind of divine interaction or the exodus would have lasted perhaps a few months not an entire generation. A ragtag group left Egypt, granted, according to scripture, they were well supplied. However, within a one generation or 40 years, a group of day laborers became one of the finest fighting troops of that era. Some power kept these folks healthy, motivated and disciplined. Thank you, I will appreciate a civil response and may what does not exist bless everyone.

Sorry but referencing the gospels is NOT evidence that god exists. It is evidence that some people will be sucked into believing the writings of people, who wrote about Jesus centuries after the event. When you are a child, as you are exposed to the world around you, the brain makes connections between left and right side. ALL religious people are merely hardwired to believe what they were taught as children, making it virtually impossible to not think in that manner. The argument that atheists need to provide evidence that God doesn't exist, is such a lame way of countering logic. Similar to the old argument "It's my belief and you cannot stop me believing what I want." Did Unicorns exist? No!! How do you know? Well where's the proof that they did? Where's the proof that they didn't? Christians should ask themselves. Why did the early Christians burn the Great Library of Alexandria (covering up the evidence maybe) Finally I don't need to believe in god to conduct my life in the correct manner. My mother taught me tolerence, understanding and compassion and hardwired me to have a conscience. God and Jesus had nothing to do with it.

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