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Pagans/Heathens?

Aside from it being an irrational belief, do you guys have a problem with pagan or heathen religions?

I don't know what you mean by "have a problem." Atheists do not believe in the supernatural what so ever. Not "the one true god", deities, devils, ghosts, witches, elves, the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, or Santa Claus etc…

The original Heathens were the pre-Christian North European peoples who lived a thousand and more years ago in the lands around what is now called the North Sea. These included the peoples of Anglo-Saxon England, Scandinavia, Germany and Frisia (Friesland). Heathen gods come from Norse Mythology.

Many scholars have found through extensive research that miracle-working sons of God, born of a mortal woman were common elements of Pagan religion that preceded Christianity. Mithras had Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus etc. And they were around centuries before Jesus.

Heaven, hell, prophecy, sacrifice, baptism, communion, monotheism, the Holy Spirit and immortality can be found in earlier Pagan faiths. They came from ancient Mediterranean culture.

When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity the festivals and stories were merged with the traditions of the earlier Roman pagan religion. Everyone knows that (Christmas trees and Easter eggs were originally Pagan.) Constantine himself worshipped both Jesus and the sun god Sol Invitus, the Romanized version of Mithra, until he died.

Mithras accepted the immortality of the soul, the triumph of good over evil, judgment day, and the resurrection of the dead. Mithras, the sun god, was born of a virgin on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday. He was a savior-god. (Sound familiar?)

Read Ezekiel the eighth chapter, verse fourteen, and you'll see that Ezekiel referred to the women who were standing before the gate of the house of Jehovah, weeping over Tammuz. Tammuz was born of a virgin, Sumerian-Babylonian, savior-god, who died and was resurrected, and each spring, in this ceremony, the women wept and wailed over his death, and then a few days later, they celebrated his resurrection. It's a pagan custom.

Everything that isn't Christian is Pagan. Jewys, Wickets, and Mooooslims are Pagan. Pagan is not someone of another religion, it is EVERYONE that isn't Christian.

Not really. To a christian that might be true but it's certainly not true of those people who don't want to self-identify as pagan. In the context I'm using it 'pagan' is an umbrella term for alternative religions that tend to be of a folk or aboriginal nature or ancestral, or earth-centered, shamanistic or reconstruction of such religions.

Jews and muslims are most definitely not pagan. Buddhists arn't really pagan but it's debatable. Scientologists and raelians are NOT pagan.

If pagan were a synonym for non-christian then all atheists would be pagan.

Anna: Without a doubt you are absolutely correct when you said:

Quote: "To a christian that might be true but it's certainly not true of those people who don't want to self-identify as pagan."

Answer: You are so right that is definitely a Christian attitude.

QUOTE: "Jews and muslims are most definitely not pagan. Buddhists arn't really pagan but it's debatable. Scientologists and raelians are NOT pagan."

ANSWER: They would say that they are not.

QUOTE: " If pagan were a synonym for non-christian then all atheists would be pagan."

ANSWER: The only reason Atheists are not pagans is because they don't believe in the supernatural it is not because one religion is better than another.

Well, it is obvious by the expressions used by "Green" to describe "other" religions where he is coming from. I can't imagine atheists expressing themselves in that manner. However, as I said atheists do not believe in the supernatural. The subject of paganism is very broad subject since it involves many cultures all over the world. But it is a fact that Christianity is based on paganism and the leaders sanctified ancient pagan customs, philosophy, and religion. They did! Few argue otherwise. Even the Catholic Church admits this. Christianity did not replace paganism they adopted it. Most atheists know this. The Church of Rome, as is well known, chose the date of 25 December, in the fourth century because this date in pagan Rome was dedicated to the Sun god. Although Christianity had already been affirmed in Rome by an Edit of Constantine, the myth of the Sun god was still widespread, especially among soldiers. The festivities, centered on 25 December, were deeply rooted in pagan tradition. They didn't adopt pagan dates and calendar, Christianity is based on pagan dates and calendar.

Why is December 25 important in pagan lore (in the Northern Hemisphere at least). The answer is simple, the sun descends to its lowest point on the horizon on December 22 where is remains until December 25. That is, the sun reaches its lowest point for 3 days and then is "resurrected". The whole Christian story is based on this and other astrological events.

The authenticity of Matthew 16:18 is disputed by most any scholar. Jesus' establishing a church is a forgery. This add-on was to support an institution that was established long after his death. Jesus Christ never establishes any new religion, or even a newfound Jewish religion! Jesus never made the forged statement in Matthew: "Go ye into all the world, and teach all nations." The avowed mission of Jesus, was exclusively to his fellow Jews: "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"; and he expressly commanded his disciples not to preach to the Gentiles, nor even to the near-Jewish Samaritans. It is impossible, therefore, that Jesus could have so flagrantly contradicted the basic principles of his exclusive mission, and could have commanded the institution of a permanent and perpetual religious organization or "Church," to preach his exclusively Jewish Messianic doctrines to all nations of the earth, which was to perish within that generation.

Ok, I think we all know about the history of christianity and the origins of many of it's traditions. We don't really need to get in to that.

So can anyone answer the question, do any of you have a problem with pagans*?

*Pagans meaning followers of those religions that self-identify as pagan, such as Wicca, Asatru, etc.

Anna said, "Ok, I think we all know about the history of christianity and the origins of many of it's traditions. We don't really need to get in to that. So can anyone answer the question, do any of you have a problem with pagans*? *Pagans meaning followers of those religions that self-identify as pagan, such as Wicca, Asatru, etc" Sorry, but it is pertinent that Christianity is based on paganism. That's why Christians, Pagans and Wiccans get dibs on Winter Solstice. Atheism does not have holy days.

Atheists, Freethinkers and others who have rational thoughts and do not rely on Bronze Age superstitions do not have an interest in superstitions/primitive myths. It's all the same thing to us. It's painfully obviously that's what Linda is saying! Atheists promote something like Atheism. Pganism, Wicca and the like are based on superstition, so, most Atheists or Freethinkers just aren't into superstitions, witches or Omens.

I have known of a few people who claim to be atheists who practice earth religions, but I would not consider them atheists. It's not like the majority of people practicing Yoga do not follow the Hindu religion although Yoga has Hindu origin.

But when it comes to myth and superstition I don't think a single Christian should be complaining.

Ok, maybe I didn't word the questions right.

I'm not asking if you accept or are interested in superstition. There's no need to go in to the history of christianity and compare it to paganism because it's irrelevent to what I'm asking.

Some problems I've heard from atheists regarding christianity and islam is that they proselytize(sometimes violently), they try to inject their religion in to the public/gov't areas(i.e creationism in science class, ten commandments at the courthouse), they think non-believers go to hell and are bad/immoral,etc, many wars/violence are caused by religion and it's factions. I could go on but I think you get my point.

Do you have any concerns with pagan religions? Is there something about Asatru, or Wicca, or Roman Recon that would give you something to dislike or complain about?

Or do you not have a problem with them at all?

OUOTE: "Ok, I think we all know about the history of christianity and the origins of many of it's traditions."

Actually that part of my answer was addressed to "Green"! "Everything that isn't Christian is Pagan." Religious claims often fall before the results of hard sciences such as archeology. All religion had a Pagan origin. All religion had it's origin in Ugarit, we know this was the case, since certain Old Testament books actually quote from the Ugaritic religious texts. We are able to see the beginnings of the Christian doctrine of the godhead in the Hebrew Bible with the help of the context supplied by the literature of Ugarit.

Pagans had demons, Christians had demons; and that Pagans had demons first, Christians had demons second. The earliest Christians said explicitly they believed in the Pagan demons. So do you think Christianity borrowed the idea of demons from Paganism? Are Christian ideas new and unique, or did Christianity borrow ideas from Paganism? Christianity had demons but Pagans had demons first; Christians had demons second. In the New Testament book Acts 17:18, Jesus is called a demon.

Allah was a pre- Islamic pagan deity. Hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters. Archaeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. From the mountains of Turkey to the banks of the Nile, the most widespread religion of the ancient world was the worship of the Moon-god. the moon usually represented the Moon-god Sin in its crescent phase. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al- ilah,. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day.

Quote: "Everything that isn't Christian is Pagan. Jewys, Wickets, and Mooooslims are Pagan. Pagan is not someone of another religion, it is EVERYONE that isn't Christian."

That's what I was answering , and the fact is that most people do not know what has been found in Ugrait (which is more important than the Dead Sea Scrolls) in understanding the origins of the major religions.

QUOTE: "Aside from it being an irrational belief, do you guys have a problem with pagan or heathen religions?"

It is interesting to study but it has nothing to do with understanding anything real about life on this planet. A case in point: Both the Celts and the Druids used mistletoe in ceremonial rituals, and as antidotes to poison, which was unfortunate, since mistletoe is, in fact, poisonous.

A primitive belief has nothing to do with life on this planet for this generation.

Yes. Atheists are pagans too. There's a big connection that has been established between the word pagan and "magick," but the word was created simply to separate "Us & Them." It's like the Muslim title of heathen for everyone that isn't a follower of Islam.

Islam calls those who are not Muslim infidels: Originally, the English word "heathen" simply meant "the people on the heath". It was a contemptuous word that city-people used of the poorer or rural people who lived outside the city walls. The word "peasant", which is of French origin (from pais, "district", and "country"), has the same contemptuous meaning: "Country people", "rural people". However, what some bible-versions in the New Testament have translated as "heathen" (or "pagan" or "gentile"), was in the Greek text ethnos ("nation"), ethnoi ("nations"), ethnikos ("of the nations") or ethnikôs ("after the manner of the nations").

Words that have been bastardized have nothing to do with weather or not something is a religion. The word 'witch' was bastardized, however, the word was originally used to describe a person who is skilled in the craft of shaping reality, or who has great wisdom. The fact that a word or religious group, craft or practice has negative associations commonly attached them has nothing to do with weather or not they are a religion either. Neo-Pagan, Pagan, Wicca and those who practice the Craft are goddess-worshippers and oppose the more mainstream image of one superior male god. Many Wiccans worship a Mother Goddess in her three aspects of Maiden, Mother, and Crone. This is unseen in patriarchal religion. Some also worship the ancient horned god-the God of the Hunt, the God of Death, and the Lord of the forests. Worshippers look to the pre-Christian or ancient religions of Europe. Many of the beliefs have a spiritual connection with nature and the worship of a feminine power. In 1958 a British archaeologist named James Mellaart made a major find: a 9,000-year-old agricultural settlement that once housed up to 10,000 people at Catalhoyuk, one of the largest of several mounds near the modern-day town of Konya, in southern Turkey. Mellaart unearthed a number of female figurines that he deemed to be representations of the mother goddess. One was a headless female nude sitting on what appears to be a throne and flanked by leopards, with a protuberant belly that could be interpreted as a sign of pregnancy. The Catalhoyuk settlement contained no fortifications, and its houses were nearly all the same size, seemingly implying just the sort of nonviolent, egalitarian social system that Goddess-worshippers believe prevailed. Catalhoyuk became the Santiago de Compostela of the Goddess movement, with hundreds of pilgrims visiting the settlement annually. The enthroned nude is a revered Goddess-movement object.

Isaac Bonewits, a historian on the subject, believes that in order to dodge persecution, Pagans changed with the times and hid under names such as Rosicrucian, Theosophists, or Spiritualists. Contemporary witches do not know what traditions are from the true family or what has been influenced by the names they hid under. The ancient pagan belief produced the doctrinal and liturgical content of first-century Christianity. The Christian mysteries come from the pagan mysteries. Christ was based on pagan savior sun god. Paul introduced the pagan ideas of his region into the worship of Jesus, and made a new religion that would be acceptable to the Gentile pagans.

Early Christian theology and practice was taken directly from the Roman Empire's pagan religions, especially the mystery religions and Gnosticism. Most of these religions had notions of "resurrections" that were tied to a cyclical view of nature and of history, of the birth, death, and rebirth of vegetation from spring to winter and back again. Witchcraft is probably the oldest religion extant in the West and it began more than thirty-five thousand years ago, during the last Ice Age. The religion's earliest adherents worshipped two deities, one of each sex: "the Mother Goddess, the birth-giver, who brings into existence all life, and the Horned God, a male hunter who died and was resurrected each year. Male shamans dressed in skins and horns in identification with the God and the herds, but priestesses presided naked, embodying the fertility of the Goddess. All over prehistoric Europe people made images of the Goddess, sometimes showing her giving birth to the Divine Child; her consort, son, and seed. They knew her as a "triple Goddess" practitioners today usually refer to her as maiden, mother, crone, but fundamentally they saw her as one deity. Each year these prehistoric worshippers celebrated the seasonal cycles, which led to the "eight feasts of the Wheel": the solstices, the equinoxes, and four festivals. Imbolc (February 2, now coinciding with the Christian feast of Candlemas), Beltane (May Day), Lammas or Lughnasad (in early August), and Samhain (our Halloween). This nature-attuned, woman-respecting, peaceful, and egalitarian culture prevailed in what is now Western Europe for thousands of years, until Indo-European invaders swept across the region, introducing warrior gods, weapons designed for killing human beings, and patriarchal civilization. Then came Christianity, which eventually insinuated itself among Europe's ruling elite. The "Old Religion" lived on in the guise of Christian practices. Starting in the fourteenth century, religious and secular authorities began a 400-year campaign to eradicate the Old Religion by exterminating suspected adherents, whom they accused of being in league with the devil. Most of the persecuted were women, the elderly, midwives, herbal healers, and natural leaders, those women whose independent ways were seen as a threat. The Old Religion went more deeply underground, its traditions passed down secretly in families and among trusted friends, until it resurfaced in the twentieth century. Wiccans revere the Goddess, practice a harmless variety shamanistic magic, and celebrate the eight feasts, or sabbats, sometimes in the nude.

I didn't answer the question: QUOTE "So can anyone answer the question, do any of you have a problem with pagans*?" The answer is simple. I don't criticize religions that don't try to impose themselves on others or try to mandate their beliefs.

Linda said: "I didn't answer the question: QUOTE "So can anyone answer the question, do any of you have a problem with pagans*?" The answer is simple. I don't criticize religions that don't try to impose themselves on others or try to mandate their beliefs."

That's all I wanted to know. Everything was pretty irrelevant.

Nothing else was addressing your question, as I stated. I was addressing the incorrect remarks concerning certain words and beliefs made by someone else.

I think I am the only one who actually did address your question.

"Atheists are pagans too."

Paganism is the broad term used to describe any religion or belief that is not Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Paganism is also a title used to define any religion that worships multiple gods. Only uninformed people have adopted the terms, pagan and heathen, as a label for atheists.

I can't imagine why anyone would care what someone thought if they clearly do not have enough understanding of the subject matter to give an informed opinion. I would want to know what they know about the subject first, since it really doesn't matter what they think if they don't understand the subject.

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