User Name:

Password:

FAQ Donate Join

General Discussion
Something in Quran

I am an atheist, but I am confused about something. The Quran states that the Red Sea, is actually split into two parts (salty and not salty). How is that possible? It wasn't known back then. I'd love to hear an explanation.

The Red Sea lies between arid land, desert and semi-desert. The main reasons for the better development of reef systems along the Red Sea is because of its greater depths and an efficient water circulation pattern, The Red Sea water mass exchanges its water with the Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean via the Gulf of Aden. These physical factors reduce the effect of high salinity caused by evaporation and cold water in the north and relatively hot water in the south.

The Red Sea is one of the most saline bodies of water in the world, due to high evaporation. Salinity ranges from between ~36 (pps) in the southern part due to the effect of the Gulf of Aden water and reaches 41 (pps) in the northern part, due mainly to the Gulf of Suez water and the high evaporation. The average salinity is 40 (pps).

No, what I'm saying is, how is there information about this in Quran?

Qur'an verses 55:19-20 "He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through." The Muslims claim this is proof of the scientific miracle of the Qur'an.

The claim is that the Qur'an has this information at a period in time when little was known about physics, or oceanography.

The question is was the knowledge that waters of different salinity density and temperature do not mix unknown to anyone prior to Muhammad? The answer is No.

At the time of Aristotle, people knew that waters of different density and salinity do not mix. A thousand years before Muhammad Aristotle wrote the following: "The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind." Obviously the sailors navigating in that sea must have noticed the difference of color between the waters.

The verse indicates that "He" didn't understand the phenomenon at all. The sill of Gibraltar, the barrier that separates the Atlantic from Mediterranean is not responsible for not letting the two waters mix. The waters do not mix because of the difference in their density, salinity and temperature. Besides the separation of these waters are not permanent. The waters of various densities, salinity's and temperatures eventually mix. The phenomenon is short lived and is observable only when the two bodies of water meet.

Muhammad is not talking about the water of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea. There is no mention of them in the Qur'an, so, it could be any two bodies of water. Was this phenomenon unknown to people at the time of Muhammad? No! This is an observable phenomenon. Anyone, who has seen a delta where rivers carrying colored sediments enter the sea or where two rivers of different colors or two seas meet, can see that for a long distance the two waters keep apart. There is no reason to believe that Muhammad had not heard of this wonder from those who had observed it. All seamen who shared their stories of their adventures had this knowledge.

The verse is not a miracle. It is a statement of something that was known being impressed but without understanding the physics behind it. It is clear to have been thought to be the work of a deity called Allah that keeps the waters apart.

Verse 25:53 "And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them." makes it clear; Muhammad is talking about two seas one with sweet and palatable and the other with salty and bitter water.

The water in both Atlantic and Mediterranean are salty. This verse does not refer to any two seas but to the waters at estuary where an arm of the sea extends inland to meet the river. In this case there is no (forbidding partitions) between the waters as Muhammad said and they eventually mix. On one side the fresh waters of the river running into the sea and on the other side the salty water of the sea being pushed away. In between the two is a mixture of the two waters. The Islamic sites claim this water in between, acts as the barrier. This statement is wrong. The waters eventually keep mixing until all the salt water and sweet water become one. The mixed water between the two waters is not the barrier but the reverse. It is the mixture of the two.

Despite the fact that this was known at that time the verse was written, it is still insisted that it is a miracle because Muhammad was illiterate and he could not have known this. But the fact that he was illiterate would not prevent him from knowing of something. He never heard any stories about this? All the stories were passed down through oral tradition. That is where they got all of their stories.

There is proof that this knowledge existed prior to Muhammad. People knew that waters of different density do not mix and they could observer it. Despite that Muhammad assumes that the waters never mix, which is obviously incorrect, and there is no barrier between the waters. These verses are not miracles, but do point out that there was no knowledge of why or how things were happening that they observed.

The point of discussion is that, how is it possible that Muhammad (SAW) know this at a time when people are never get out of the desert?

Aristotle is just a last century person. Muhammad (SAW), almost 1500 years ago, said all these things with reference to Quran.

The discussion is about Muslim's claim that the verses 55:19-20 are proof of the scientific miracle of the Qur'an. I proved that wrong. Your arguments did not address anything that I said. I will give the information in detail again and answer your argument that Muhammad couldn't have known what the Greeks knew.

Muslims claim that the verses 55:19-20 are proof of the scientific miracle of the Qur'an "He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through."

Aristotle lived in 350 BC or 1000 years before Muhammad. A thousand years before Muhammad Aristotle wrote: "The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind."

It is clear that at the time of Aristotle, people knew that waters of different density and salinity do not mix. Obviously the sailors navigating in that sea must have noticed the difference of color between the waters.

It is something that was known 1000 years before Muhammad and you know how people spread rumors. Muhammad traveled with caravans to the Yemen and to Syria. Ancient Greek travel and commerce included Syria, Persia, Arabia, and Egypt.

Also it seems that Muslims do not understand the phenomenon at all. The sill of Gibraltar, the barrier that separates the Atlantic from Mediterranean is not responsible for not letting the two waters to mix. The waters do not mix because of the difference in their density, salinity and temperature. Furthermore the separation of these waters are not permanent. The waters of various densities, salinity and temperatures eventually mix.

I've met many ex-Muslims in New York where some of my relatives are involved in activities where they meet all kinds of people from ex-religions. I noticed that the ex-Muslims can not only debunk Quranic Sciences and miracle, but they can debunk the Biblical miracles and pseudo science. I started studying the Qur'an just to be able to converse and be on the same page.

The ex-Muslims I've met know fanatics are dangerous but they were not aware of the fact that xian fanatics are dangerous too. I have been very helpful filling them in on that.

I could present vast amounts of information about how the Qur'an was written but it would do about as much good as telling it to the brainwashed hillbilly fundamentalists - if that's not what I'm doing anyway. There are xian fundamentalists who try to use the Qu'ran to prove their Biblical nonsense and I can debunk anything they try to pull out of their ass from the Bible, Qur'an or the Torah or you can just name it. You name a nut case story and I've been there.

Every country has their mirror images of our wing-nut fundamentalists. They all believe that their holy books reveal secrets, miracle and weird science. It is a common belief amongst Muslims that the Qur'an reveals many miracles and actual science. When our xian fundies try to pawn their Biblical pseudo science off as real science they often try to use the Qur'an for corroboration, but they do not accept Islam. Then we do have the Right Wing xians that find science in the Qur'an to please the oil rich Saudi princes.

Dear twin Linda,

I believe in godly intervention with the humans beginning with the Abrahamic revelations until the Qur'an but I will only stress with you on the latter, since as a Muslim i believe that it's the least altered phone call from the other side ☺

It has given me pleasure to discover your careful research of the Qur'an and exercises with faithful and less educated people online and in NY, and particularly so, since you're a witted ((fundamental)) atheist. It explains greatly to what extent we're capable to go in order to seek the truth and prove it, then to claim it as a belief and struggle to confirm it. I marked you as a fundamentalist because you studied a religion only to assault it's faithful followers by trying to formulate errors guessing imaginary life situations and motivations of the prophet's life, just like average historians, but more importantly you did it to reinforce your dry atheist confidence, which is based on scientific proof and a little stubbornness against your creator, or the "depend-upon father" rejection. Smarter people are the most stubborn, but the smartest ones always keep a bit of an open mind and better hope and are merciful rather than fanatics whether religious or atheists they r, but who's to blame, we're all God's creation who warned us of his blazing torment but also reassured us with the news of his mercy here and in heaven for the good and faithful ones in blind faith of his word, and of mercy also to the non-criminal minds whatsoever. Afterlife suffering is only for the unfair aggressors of God's word and creation. Although I don't care, but from your tempered reply I think that you much believe in god, otherwise you wouldn't be such a keen aggressor to the monotheistic religion which is the only taboo many atheists suffer from for the simple idea that unlike exotic pagan beliefs, god here, is an unidentifiable singularity everywhere in existence, denying all humanistic theatrical symbols and giving true vision to ancient communities dwelling beneath the same sun, moon and stars which today are still overwhelming through magnified science. You refuse to believe in what you cannot understand why it makes you feel guilty not to believe in, so you attack it instead. This situation is referred to as bad energy, or evil. If you can, you are capable of annihilating a country off of existence if it irritates your belief so much, and don't be offended because it's only human nature, created according to his holy image which is extremely peaceful or extremely severe. But it's up to you to decide which dimension to push your energy at after you die.

Concerning Islamic disputes on embryology or other, you have to eliminate any hadith notes and stick to the Qur'anic verses only, hadith is just as true as to be false and the prophet is as human as anyone else which God picked for another revelation established on the principles that any revision is sin, which so far kept it free from contradiction with modern science and very much in harmony with. The revelation also called on the people to seek the truth of existence by scientific study, you should know this since you seem to be more knowledgeable in the Qur'an than me, among other things, regarding early Muslim researchers who by Qur'anic motivation adopted the unpopular theory of a spherical earth floating in space which they proved it by mathematical calculations still accurate today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Islamic_world

Debunking something you can't prove scientifically that it's wrong is a bad move. People are the same everywhere; it's only climate and environments that define civilizations in history, and then weather changes and environments too. Whether you believe it or not, Islam is the most rationalistic religion blossoming the entire Abrahamic revelations, and which can give you what science alone can't, remarkable soul fulfillment and more excitement.

Mazen

You're putting out this frickin dorky crap in place of any actual rebuttal to the answer. None of my replies were anything like as "tempered" as yours, but I'm sure you will overlook all of that. And the fact that the person got that answer because they were implying that I didn't know what the question was; when it seems that he apparently didn't grasp what the question was, and he sure didn't know the answer.

I'm supposedly a "twin" and (other stupidity) doesn't cloud the fact that I gave an answer with proof that people knew that waters of different density and salinity did not mix long before the Qu'ran was written. Also, it seems that Muslims do not understand the phenomenon at all. The sill of Gibraltar, the barrier that separates the Atlantic from Mediterranean is not responsible for not letting the two waters mix. Verses 55:19-20 is not about a miracle. The waters do not mix because of the difference in their density, salinity and temperature. Furthermore the separation of these waters are not permanent. The waters of various densities, salinity and temperatures eventually mix.

I proved all of that but you have only insinuated all kinds of distortions. I'm a "twin"! I don't talk to people in New York online. They are my relatives. I don't have to talk to any of them online since they are visiting here and I visit them. I said that they know atheists from various religions including ex-Muslims. They are all well educated professionals. What the hell are your qualifications? I have only heard the Pope call atheists' fundamentalist, which is a hoot since I don't believe one word of any holy writ period. I study science, ancient history and many subjects (including religion) in order to determine for myself what is true (instead of letting someone brainwash me) without ever taking the time or putting out any effort to find out if what I'm being spoon fed is true or not. That's why I don't have to tailgate people with insults in order to discredit their false claims by only posting insults and some more false claims. I do the research and find the answers myself. You have not provided any proof of what you are claiming - it's just what you believe. I think that the uneducated ones are those who don't know the science and the historical facts. That's why your answers suck! Your silly remarks like "I think that you much believe in god" is totally false and that is provable in my case. I happen to be a person who has never been baptized or a member of any religion. That is provable since all churches and religious groups in this country keep meticulous records. They often keep better records than the government does and that information is often used to do genealogies. However, many atheists have belonged to a religion and they are just as much an atheist as I am.

As far threats of burning in hell go - forget about it. Some of the New Testament reference contains footnotes, marginal readings and appendages that point out that Greek and Hebrew words regarding hell have been mistranslated.

When Jerome translated the Bible into Latin in 400 AD he tried to support the already established doctrine of hell of the Roman Catholic Church. Hell came from his mistranslation and misinterpretation of the following Hebrew and Greek words sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna (mistranslated to mean hell) none of those words meant a place where bad people go to burn forever or (even to be punished) there is no place called hell. The mistranslation of the Hebrew word owlam to mean time-related is wrong. It means; yoking, binding, tying uniting, fastening, joining and weaving, and the Greek word aion and aionios do not mean everlasting. In Rome there were certain periodical games known as the secular games, from the Latin seculum, a period, or age. The historian Herodian, writing in Greek, calls these aiónian games periodical, occurring at the end of a seculum. As late as A. D. 540 aiónios meant limited duration, and required an added word to impart the meaning of an endless duration. And that really doesn't matter since there was no hell to start with. Nowhere in the original Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts of the Bible does it say that God will punish unbelievers or even the Devil forever.

They had to threaten and torture people into the "New Religion" because they were not willing. They needed converts and soldiers to die for Rome and a new deity (Julius Caesar was deified 100 years before Jesus) and many people were still Caesarians. This is not very different from marrying a war over Oil to a religion. Since you mention religion, I thought I'd mention how often religious beliefs are used to get people to do things that are simply absurd.

Your "miracle" argument concerning the Quranic verses about embryonic stages is based on the claim that the Qur'an described embryo development in stages in the uterus and that this was not known (explained or illustrated) until the 15th century AD. The claim is also made that the stages described in the Qur'an match our modern science.

First of all the idea that nobody knew anything about embryo development until the 15th century AD is false because Hypocrites did according to the best evidence, he was born on the Greek island of Cos in 460 BC. Hypocrites described the stages as 1.Sperm 2.Mother's blood descends around the membrane 3.Flesh fed through umbilicus 4.Bones. Clearly this shows that 1000 years before the Qur'an the development of the embryo was divided into stages.

In 350 BC, Aristotle described the stages of embryology. "It follows that what the female would contribute to the semen of the male would be material for the semen to work upon" (the semen clots the menstrual blood). "Nature forms from the purest material the flesh and from the residues thereof bones, sinews, hair, and also nails and lastly, round about the bones, and attached to them by thin fibrous bands, grow the fleshy parts."

The Qur'an follows this exactly, sperm clotting the menstrual blood which forms meat. Then the bones are formed and lastly "round about the bones grow the fleshy parts."

Galen (lived around 131 AD) was also important in medicine around the time of the Hejira, four leading medical men in Alexandria, Egypt decided to form a medical school using 16 books of Galen as the basis of the studies. This continued up to and including the 13th century. From the Hadramaut in Yemen, the caravans of the spice trade passed north through Mecca and Medina and then reached all of Europe. In Constantinople Sergius al-ras Ayni (died in 536 AD) he translated various works on medicine, including 26 books of Galen's works into Syriac. This made them available in the Kingdom of Khosru I and to the Ghassan Tribe whose influence extended to the outskirts of Medina.

Khosru I, (Arabic Kisra) King of Persia from 531-579, was known as Khosru the Great. His troops conquered areas as far away as Yemen. He started several schools "The school of Jundi-Shapur" that became (during Khosru I's reign of 48 years) the greatest intellectual center of the time. Within this intellectual center Greek, Jewish, Nestorian, Persian and Hindu thought and experience were freely exchanged. Teaching was done largely from Syriac translations of Greek text. That makes it very obvious that the embryonic stages being known was not a "miracle" because the embryo development in stages was known before the Qur'an was written. Even though they had that information when the Qur'an was written they still got the science wrong.

The human embryology in the Qur'an and the Hadith verses uses the word 'alaqa' or a clot. There is no stage as a clot during the formation of a fetus so this is a very major scientific problem. A formation from a 'blood clot' or an 'adhesion' is a statement that is totally unacceptable to scientists. The fusion of the nucleus of the sperm and the nucleus of the ovum form it.

The Quranic verses say that the lump of flesh becomes bone and then the bones are covered with muscles. There is no time when calcified bones have been formed and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones as the Qur'an states. The Qur'an is in complete error.

Concerning absurdities caused by religious people I say false, absurdities of the religious are peanuts compared to what skeptics caused in the last 80 years, no clarifications needed here. Also, absurdities of any kind including the religious are absurdities of man, not religion. Religion is pure and perfect, man is absurd and personally I find absurd religious people far safer than absurd atheists, more pleased and much less frustrated. As a Muslim (submitter (to the unknown creator) ), I don't care to defend god or save souls by preaching because god never needs any publicity or support, what I'm invited to do is only "not to hide my belief and its spiritual and substantial rewards" which is what life is all about. Linda, I think it's better our discussion be closed or switched to another topic because it's not going anywhere. Peace

Mazen said, "Concerning absurdities caused by religious people I say false, absurdities of the religious are peanuts compared to what skeptics caused in the last 80 years, no clarifications needed here.

Peanuts! Shell game here! The Rome Christian Crusades slaughtered those who did not accept Christianity - the new state religion. The Moorish leader of the Muslim crusades was Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, and his civilization did the same thing.

Let's clear up a few facts concerning atheists - then you can tell me what you are talking about if this does not cover it: The Russian revolution of Marx never materialized - Marxism has nothing to do with the Russian communist system or China's communist system. Leon Trotsky and Lenin, the most outstanding leaders of the 1905 revolution and the October revolution in Russia, fell victim to an assassination expressly ordered by Joseph Stalin. Stalin's counterrevolutionary extermination of a long list of leaders and participants in the October revolution was completed. This is how Stalin (a Catholic) took over and became leader with an entirely different system under Stalin's communism. Hitler and Stalin were raised in the church and both aspired to be priests. Stalin was actually a Russian Orthodox Catholic. There is a National Geographic with interviews that were done with Russian orthodox priests who stated that Stalin was in fact a member of the Russian Orthodoxy. Marxism is not communism. Marx was anti-religion he said, religion was opium for the masses." Many Stalin communists were involved with the Russian orthodox Church that has been thriving in Russia from that time to the present day. Under Stalin communism was a bastardized version of Marx's ideas that were adapted to capitalist ideas in order to maintain trade, and internal commerce. All other existing states of communism since were Stalinist, except China, which originally was Stalinist and adapted over time. Mousolini was a Roman Catholic. Moa and Pol Pot were not raised atheist either.

Mazen said, "Also, absurdities of any kind including the religious are absurdities of man, not religion."

Religion is an absurdity of man.

Mazen said, Religion is pure and perfect, man is absurd and personally I find absurd religious people far safer than absurd atheists, more pleased and much less frustrated.

Religion is total fraud and none of the holy books hold up to scrutiny of any kind.

Mazen said, As a Muslim (submitter (to the unknown creator) ), I don't care to defend god or save souls by preaching because god never needs any publicity or support, what I'm invited to do is only "not to hide my belief and its spiritual and substantial rewards" which is what life is all about.

If God that does not need man's advertising why do all the religions spend a fortune on advertising or as they say, "spreading the word".

Mazen said, "Linda, I think it's better our discussion be closed or switched to another topic because it's not going anywhere. Peace"

No doubt, it is better for you since you've never presented a rebuttal to any of my answers to your "miracles"; you just bring up some other issue, which is fine, but not until you answer the first issue. This is very typical. I bet this is also too long and complicated to read.

Linda, very well done! Impressive!

i am sorry but this is the same reason why the quran says so much about the unbelievers. there will come a day where you will stand infront of god. are you going to prove him that aristotle is the man he gave the miracle of this world to. the quran is a secret. the quran have rules. not everyone can understand the quran. some people read it and learn it for their whole lives and still dont get the point. it was not made for everyone to understand. if you want to gain knowledge tho. thats the only book out there that talks about the actual truth. three things are hated in this world.

1- a man that is rich and shares his wealth 2- a man that is wise and shares his knowledge 3- and the book that was revealed to mohamed (saw). keep hating you are not the first one. maybe you will see the light one day. you hate the book and the man.... dang the truth is he was rich and shared his wealth he was wise and shared his knowledge he is the man that people that run this world today cannot stand. him and his message.

Lolz. who the hack are you to prove something is "WRONG"?

how about the quran talking about the queen of sheba and the land of the punt and the gardens that was placed on the right and the left of the gulf aden and how the gulf aden was hit with a dam of water. scientist found this out recently. it is in the quran tho (surat al saba). did aristotle talk about that? did he mention the queens left leg? because it was different and the actual proof of the left leg of sheba was found in ethiopia recently. was the quran wrong about that? so little you know about muhammed (saw)

Well its obvious!!! Allah sent angel to tell mohammed these stories. U guys are acting like mohammed s.a.w was a magician or a god!! He was just a man who got all his knowledge and stories from allah!! So how did mohammed s.a.w know about jesus?? Allah told him!!! He knew things because allah told him!!! He teached what allah told him!! How could u even ask how mohammed s.a.w knew this??? He was a measenger to allah and allah knows everything and so did mohammed s.a.w I mean thats the whole idea why he came prophet so allah tells him the true stories off the past!!

I have been studying Quran for a while now and I found it real interesting facts. We have been blinded about Islam for many years now, what we know about Islam is a bad picture of it. That what our media tells us, but Islam has inner beautiful ever. Is the religion to go for not to avoid. Don't stop there just get your Quran read it you will discover more! I could advice you to watch Peace Tv (Dr. zaik Naik) in one program about multi-faith comparisonů.

Subahanallah, may Allah (SWT) give you more guidance and protect you from the oppressors and evils.

oh u find beauty in quran...all i found was hatred and inconsistency....watch it bro u r being systematically brainwashed..that zakir naik is one of the biggest religious manipulator i have seen...peace..an ex muslim...read it for urself if u want to know its truth..,,just dont let others hsow u what to read and what to believe!!!

it explains that 1400 years ago. it is an invisible line too, you cant see it. scientists found this out 8 years ago. for full information: look at this website

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm also look up the miracles of the quran in youtube

Linda is giving irrelevant answers to justify her staying as an atheist coz she thinks she's cooler that way... take time for yourself to think and contemplate while looking at the other mind blowing scientific revelations in the Quran that scientists just discovered recently, you owe that to yourself.... many scientists have converted to islam, you can check them out on youtube, also check Dr.zaghloul el Najjar's/naggar's books or youtube videos, even though there are more mazing stuff he says that u can't find in youtube, maybe you can check his official site.

Since you don't know me; you don't know why I think anything! All you have offered is a silly insult and what could possibly be more irrelevant? You haven't given a rebuttal to my answers period have you? What are the "mind blowing scientific revelations in the Quran that scientists just discovered recently" and "many scientists have converted to islam?" Who are they? People that are not as dumb as a rock ask questions and look for answers themselves? Have a problem with that! Look for objective (unbiased) sources. Then give facts backed up with evidence. I suggest that people do their own research and not simply accept biased information as the truth. The claim that the Qur'an foretold numerous modern day scientific discoveries has been disputed by science and logic. These claims concerning the Qur'an and science have not survived examination, and there are numerous contradictions between science and the Qur'an. The reason the claim was made that the Qur'an is ahead of modern science is due to Muslim's concern that within the last decades growing number of average Muslims started to learn modern science. In order to control the mounting doubt because of contradictions between the Qur'an and science Muslims claimed the Qur'an was ahead of science and that is what was not known. Some xian fundies do the same with the Bible and they try to use the Qur'an the same way; it is nothing more than deception. The Bible and Qur'an describe the sky as a roof supported by invisible pillars built to stop it from falling on the Earth. The "splitting of the moon" claim based on verse 54:1 describes an event that allegedly took place in Mecca when Mohammed was asked by the Arabs to split the moon as a proof to them that he was a prophet. Mohammed simply made the moon split into two halves, one half on each side of the mountain Hira. I find it hard to believe, but supposedly the Arabs merely accused Mohammed of performing magic tricks. The "Splitting of the Moon" in the Qur'an claims that Mohammed made the moon to split into two halves and then glued them together. The modern claim is that fourteen hundred years later, NASA confirmed that splitting. Records of solar eclipses have been kept since ancient times, but there is no record anywhere related to "moon splitting" except by a few Muslims in the Middle Eastern Desert. Even if they couldn't observe an eclipse of the moon all over the world the "splitting of the moon" would have been a worldwide phenomenon that would have been hard to dismiss. These facts strongly suggest to logical and reasonable people that the claim is false. Just like the claim that NASA has proven "moon splitting" by a picture they released throughout the world of the "moon splitting". There were satellite images of the moon surface that showed grooves, which exist normally on the moon and many planets. There was no claim that there was an outstanding discovery; but some Islamic web sites published the satellite images claiming they were formed as a result of that split fourteen hundreds years ago. Actually, the story in the Qur'an completely contradicts modern science. According to the Qur'an Mohammed split the moon in two and then joined the parts back together. "The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain" verse 54:1. Even if some cockamamie Muslim (geologist) does really think that NASA scientists have discovered that the moon was split into two halves and joined back together, if this had actually occurred then how come nobody else on Earth noticed it? Also, if the moon had split and then rejoined, the energy involved would have melted the moon and wiped out all the craters that we see today on its surface.

The authors of the Qur'an made up this story about the "splitting moon" because they thought the moon was a small ball in the sky. They didn't have a clue about its gravitational pull on our planet. They didn't know about gravity. They had some idea that "splitting the moon" wouldn't have any effect on earth's stability, which demonstrates that the authors were totally ignorant of astronomy, and that is evident throughout the Qur'an. No sane educated person would believe this madness. According to the Qur'an, the Earth is flat and stationary at the center of the Universe and the Sun and Moon are just little lights that move across the Sky every 24 hours. This clearly contradicts Modern Science. "And the Sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise and for the Moon we have appointed mansions till she returns like an old shriveled palm leaf." For all of human history up until 1543 AD, it was Universally accepted by Christians, Muslims and everyone else that the Earth was static in the center of the Universe and that heavenly bodies were just little lights moving around in the sky. The Qur'an clearly speaks of the Sun moving to a resting place. Nowhere does the Qur'an explicitly state that the Earth is one of several Planets orbiting the Sun. Explain how the Qur'an says nothing about other planets, Earth's rotation, but only states that the Sun is moving, and is still supposedly in complete agreement (even ahead) of modern science.

The "7 layers of heaven" does not come any closer to modern science. The closest celestial body to Earth (is) was the Moon and the farthest Saturn. Therefore the concept of the 7 layers of heaven is based on ancient astronomy, where each celestial body occupied a crystal sphere one placed on top of the other like layers of an onion. Both Judaism and Christianity make reference to these layers of heaven. The number seven was tattooed into the brain of the ancient man. There were seven planets or gods and the phases of the moon changed every seven days. God rested on day seven ending creation week. Every seventh year was sabbatical and the seven times seventh year ushered in the Jubilee year. The Pagans divided their weeks in seven days each day representing a deity. The verse has nothing to do with layers of the atmospheres as claimed by charlatans. It has to do with the geocentric concept of the universe that was prevalent at the time. Note also that according to the Qur'an, stars are lamps that are affixed to the ceiling of the lower layer of the Heaven for adornment purposes. The lower level is the sphere of the Moon. Obviously stars are not in the same layer where the Moon is and neither the Moon nor the stars are in the lower atmosphere of the Earth. The concept of the layers of heaven in the Qur'an is unrelated to anything known about the layers of the atmosphere. Neither the Qur'an nor the Bible are scientifically correct. Christianity can be traced back to the pagan Babylon religion, and Islam can be traced back to the pagan moon worship of the Assyrians and Babylonians. The Babylonian Sin (the moon) was a very ancient deity. The name Mount Sinai has its origin in the god Sin. There is solid evidence that demonstrates the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters. Archeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. And was still the dominant cult in the purported time of Muhammad. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, the greatest god among the gods. The Moon-god was called al-ilah, the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. History establishes beyond the shadow of doubt that pagan Arabs (before Muhammad) chief god's name was Allah. Allah was actually the greatest of 360 gods (one for each day of the year) being worshipped in Arabia at the time Muhammad rose to prominence. Pre-Islamic literature has proved pagans before Muhammad worshipped Allah at Mecca. Allah was one of many gods worshiped in Mecca until Muhammad allegedly taught the worship of Allah as the only God. A likely interpretation for the "splitting of the moon" story (if you get the connection).

Muhammad allegedly was born in Arabia in the year 570 of the Christian era (yr. 1400) and died after 63 years. So, Muhammad lived about 600 years after Jesus. Muhammad was presumed illiterate, which explains why he never wrote anything. Jesus never wrote anything either. The first message God gave Muhammad was the same message he had given to Abraham in the Old Testament. There is only one true God; all other gods are false, and he (Muhammad) must spread the word. Muhammad received messages from God through the angel Gabriel. The Qur'an was not written by Muhammad. Various editions of the Qur'an were written down in the 30 years or so following the death of Muhammad, but Muslim histories, such as Sahih Bukhari, tell us that these were contradictory and incomplete. After the death of most of the eyewitnesses at the battle of Yamama an earnest attempt was made to put together the sayings of Muhammad. According to al-Bukhari no single person could remember the whole of the Qur'an, and different parts were taken from different people. The accounts were in different dialects, and were consequently translated into the Arabic of the Qur'an at the time they were written down. Once the new official collection of the Qur'an had been produced the order went out to destroy all the other variants. The official document was made in the reign of the Caliph Uthman, and is called the "Uthmanic collection." The length of time between the death of Muhammad and the writing of the Qur'an was about the same as the time between the ascension of Jesus and the writing of the Gospels. There are no original manuscripts or eyewitness accounts in the New Testament and the authors are unknown, and there is no evidence or original documents that support the authenticity of the New Testament or the Qur'an. The claims that 7th century copies of the original Qur'an were found in museums at Topkapi, Turkey and Tashkent, Russia were only 9th and 10th Century manuscripts. Qur'an was invented in order to give spiritual unity to the vast empire created by Arab conquests and the New Testament Christianity was invented to unify the Roman Emprie under Emperor Constantine. Religion is a political tool used to enslave the people, who allow religion to impose the laws, how to dress, how to punish dissent and control cultural conditions through divine law.

Nobody has challenged the issues I raised in my rebuttal. Don't waste any more of our time if none of you can give a counter-argument with facts.

Hello, Linda

First of all, thank for posting all this useful info, I'm just finding out about the paganic Moon-god. I'm an atheist, ex-muslim, and I'm posting here in hope that you can help me with one question. It's the claim of miraculous preservation of pharaoh's body. How can I respond to that argument? I'm interested in claims of Maurice Bucaille...and hopefully, you are still posting here :)

Thanks, again!

if i may add something..

I think i know what you are talking about, the pharaoh who "got punished by God" and his remains wouldn't wither as it should, to leave an example for "infidels", or something among those lines?

Such arguments are based on wishful thinking and ignorance, the only way you can respond to that without hurting somebody's feelings and risking getting "violently convinced" is by giving up i'm afraid, Such people are mostly believing up to a point where you can not talk to them reasonably most of the time (?). If it comes to that point, the smarter one should give up in the end.

I say that out of own experience, i often came to the point where people shut off and stop listening, or even get offensive, and if somebody didn't learn anything about mummification by now, or can't come to the conclusion that it could be the reason, they are simply too ignorant or uneducated.

However if you really wish to discuss it, upgrade your knowledge about mummification and preservation of the human body under certain conditions (moisture, temperature, different materials used to preserve the skin and organs over long time and so on), I saw something about that on History not too long ago, they found strangely preserved bodies in South America and tested different plants and materials from that region to see how they did it. They got good results. There also seems to be lots of lost knowledge on that topic.

You can also use the example of Plastination, the "modern art of mummification". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastination.

I went to a bodyworlds expo, quite fascinating stuff.. a bit gross though. In short it is a technique used to exchange most of the body fluids with some sort of plastic (polymer or whatever, i am no expert and i find it too gross to think and read too much about that) to preserve it for a loooooong long time Of course that would have been rather unlikely, if not impossible in the past.. But the people back then were not quite as stupid as we like to think nowadays.

Old egyptians even had surgery and amazing medication, they were experts when it comes to mummification. Try to find some shows on that topic and watch it together with the ones you wish to reason with, but chances are they will just ignore anything you tell them or show them and stick to their illusion.

I wanted to add my 2 cents, but to be honest I am curious to see if somebody can give you a better opinion and more facts on that topic.

I don't think I have problems with that. Actually, even the pharaoh they claim to be the pharaoh of exodus (Ramses 2 or Merneptah) has been found in a tomb, mummified as usual. So, they claim, that they found his body after the battle and mummified it in already prepared tomb. Of course, that's all nonsense, but there's this one dude Maurice Bucaille (that, by the way, claims that evolution is fake) that examined body of Merpentah and claims that there are evidence that he died of drowning. He is a muslim now, and he is actually the only one that claims that, cause in all historical records you won't find that. I know it's all BS, but I'm sure that in the end it will come down to that, that you can't rebuke it because there is a scientist that found evidence. So, I was wondering if someone knows something about that that I don't know. By the way, in his book The Bible, The Qur'an and Science there is no mention of such evidence, but he has this other book, Mummies of the Pharaohs: Modern Medical Investigations, that I can't find anywhere.

And the same way (on the topic of Moon god), they would claim that actually people long time before Muhammad believed in one god, allah, but that got changed because of the ignorance and they got all these other deities and stuff, so Muhammad was needed to bring people back on the right path. I know it's nonsense, and they would know if they thought about it honestly, but still I want something they can't respond to in any way. So, just wondering, what would you say in such situation :)

And greetings from Bosnia ;)

I don't know anything about that book you said that delusional moron (Maurice whateverhisnamewas) refers to, but since he denies evolution i am safe to deny whatever knowledge and evidence he has to offer. If you really want i can try to find it and post here again later or send you an email if it is copyrighted and can only legally be downloaded in countries like ours. I don't want to post links to copyrighted material on this page. I might also know somebody who can look it up in the library of FTV in Sarajevo, there is a high chance they have that, and a book about the preislamic pagan deities, so we can maybe check it out it in our language.

However what I would say in that situation is that i can't find any relation from some old Pharaoh being drowned and mummified (if he was drowned at all) to certain proof for Allah or whatever imaginary friend they believe in.. and i also don't see what people in Bosnia have to do with it, who were brought to Islam by force by Turks, well actually the other way round, they brought it to us by force in the name of their "peaceful" God. Fact is, its just some old half rotten corpse in whatever condition, found in whatever country. Even if the Qur'an says what day the guy died, at what time, what he had for breakfast, and what his shoe size is, it still, just like everything else, doesn't prove that what is written there is inspired by god, and most certainly doesn't prove the existence of an omnipotent being.

Even if we ignore all the historical and scientific CRAP that their holy book contains, a book having SOME facts, doesn't prove God, even if the book says that it comes from god, since it undeniably was written by humans, even according to the Muslims. And even less does it prove which god did it, because, that mummy for example, sure didn't have Allah's signature on it, which again could be fake but thats not my point here :)

They have no proof whatsoever, actually what they have is a book full of evidence against what they think is true.

Ask them if you can take your math book, put the formulas all over a fairy tale book about some magical unicorn, add some weather forecast for next week and prove the existence of the Unicorn with it, you don't even need to tell them that your weather forecast and your formulas are more accurate than what their book has to offer.

They will tell you that they don't believe in the unicorn and whatever you show them, but they believe in their version of God because they have faith and because their book says so, and of course because "faith" was inserted into their brains as soon as they started to talk.. but i doubt they would admit that. Which kills the base for any decent discussion... In general, they will only believe to people who support their version of reality.

And that is why i said it is pretty much pointless to try reasoning about such things, for a discussion to have any sense, one would have to talk to people who think rationally and don't start twisting and ignoring facts by default if those even remotely could scratch on their belief system. One can't really talk to people who in some scriptical crap and obsolete knowledge and hearsay, see proof for a God who is contradictory in any case and the big bang theory, which is claimed to be explained in the Qur'an as well *cough*BULLSHIT*cough* among other ridiculous claims that they make.

You could ask themwhy, if their God is all-knowing, he would have to test the Jews if they would try to fish on the Sabbath, he should know that they will do it anyway, and forcing them to do so by leaving no fish for them on other days is not only unfair, but also saddistic, especially if he already knows what they will do.

But they justify such things with incoherent interpretations of their incoherent verses and of course by having "faith" like with everything else, which basically just means they ignore facts and contradictions and say that we can't understand God and whatever he does is just perfect anyway, right? Or simply that we are not to scrutinize him but blindly accept him and worship him, which again just means you are wasting your breath. Since I am pretty much sick of that i just say to our Bosnian people that they can't find ANY truth as long as they base it on faith, to actually find proof they have to look at everything else except for faith and start thinking and analyzing, rationally, which if they would do it once in a while, would be reason enough to apostatize.

So again all i can say is "pusti budale" ;) If you get ignored, save your breath my friend.

And about Islam in general, just like all abrahamic religions, islam comes from paganic multi-deistic religions. Pagans being demonized explains the word "pogano" in our language. The trinity was huge in the pre biblical world. Sumerians Babylonians and many other folks had a trinity as religious system, and the Moon God with a crescent moon on his chest as a symbol.

What christians did can be easily explained, i like to quote lord of the rings there but instead "one ring to rule them all" i say "one god to bully the others away and rule all the sheep for thousands of years in the future" They took other goods and "killed" them, put many of them into the sky as example for other religions, you know like you leave a killed mafia boss on the street to show there is a new boss in town haha. They eliminated all gods except for one, explained the Trinity in another way, even adapted their old holidays (christmas as the birth of Jesus for instance should be in spring, but it was a pagan holiday in december which was replaced, making it easier for the new believers to accept the holiday)

And Islam did something like that, it killed all gods but one. It is a fact that the name of Allah's came from that pagan moon god that you mentioned, his symbol was the crescent moon, which was used for many versions of that very same Moon-God. Al Ilah if i am correct in arabic, Sin and Suen in another languages, and so on. With the Sun Goddess being his wife and the stars his daughters. Al Ilah being just one of over 300 Gods, which at that time in Mekka were praised and worshipped, That is also why the place was stormed and violently overtaken and their idols destroyed and big ones hidden under a big black stone, at least according to my knowledge and logic. Al Ilah was one of the highest ranked gods in the preislamic religion which is most likely why they took the name to be able to easier convert the people to the "new religion" - logical claim once again.

The continuity of the biblical teaching is used both for the book to have more substance, but also to be able to convert christians and jews to the "new version of their own religion" Al Ilah had 3 daughters which were said are to be worshipped in "the Satanic Verses" (Surah 53:19-20 in that case) Well those 3 were mentioned.. not sure if all stars were his daughters.. I think the 3 are the ones from Orion's belt, i am really not sure.. you can't quote me on that orion/osiris thing, but it would be linked to the egyptian mythology, which i believe it does. As far as i know the verses were taken out of the modern versions of the Qur'an but you can sure find more about that online and pretty much disprove that "Qur'an is same like 1400 years ago" argument, if one would actually consider your arguments, which they, as usual, won't do.

Linda mentioned a lot about Islam somewhere on the forum, but she wrote SO much everywhere and very detailed, so you might need a while to find it. From what i remember Tracie who made the atheist eve comic knows a lot about the quran and the islam as well but i doubt you will find her writing much here on the forums and Linda doesn't seem to be as active either, at least at the moment :( Maybe somebody else can summarize and correct what i wrote.

However the ones who wrote the Qur'an of course knew those things, and islamic experts who actually do read and discuss about other religions and try to defend Islam against so many educated critics, know that as well (but there are not so many since many take only "their god" as relevant and people are discouraged and of course stigmatized if they think and talk about such things, as you sure know, and even killed in some countries). However they would never admit that their one and only god is just a product of old religious beliefs and that their teachings originate from several old books and merely were put together and "corrected" to present a "modern new" religion "100% correct" with Muhammed being the "last prophet of god the almighty" after Issa (aka Zombie Lord Jesus) as another proof that a huge part of their teachings comes from the Bible.

Their one and only god, in an earlier version also had a wife, even in the Christian version and so many other versions. When he was called Yahweh, his wife was Ei, which is also a fact that is being denied for millenia by Christians. Although many do know the part of the bible where god says "we created the humans based on OUR image"

You can find a lot of evidence pointing to such things, but that won't only be ignored, you might even get physically attacked by the "more devoted God-fan"

Not sure how i can help you with that, it depends on how open minded the ones you are trying to convince are, I pretty much gave up arguing with our Bosnian folks, but you might have better chances to open their eyes to some of those facts, than you would have with arabs, which is also why i am still alive although i VERY OFTEN tried to talk facts and reason with our people :D

If you want facts and opinions from critics and ex-muslims, check this link:

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/library.htm

this is just one of SOOOOO many places where you can find enough evidence against Islam and its teachings, but it won't help you if you are being ignored or even attacked as the "attack is the best defense"-strategy..

The best place where they can disprove their belief is unfortunately their brainwashed head..

Well enough of me i guess, poz drug :)

Evolution is a joke. Do you seriously believe that humans evolved from monkeys? If that's true then why arent we still evolving? And why do monkeys still exist?

You people are just denying the truth. The universe is not a product of mere chance. It is WAY to accurate. And just because some muslims claim that the Quran was written by people doesn't mean that's true. God tested the Jews because he is just and wanted to give them a chance to actually act out before getting angry.

Plus why would God have a wife?? The whole concept of reproduction is to prevent human beings and animals fromt going extinct.

The pagan arabs worshipped those three "daughters of Allah" and thought of them as intermediateries between them and God. God sent those verses down to prove them wrong.

The monkeys who live today, have the same ancestors like we humans. If your god wanted you to be above the animals he wouldn't give you the same bodily flaws and functions like the monkeys have.

Also evolution is not a THEORY because we are just guessing. A scientific theory is VERY different from a common theory.

Scientists have examples of evolution happening in front of their eyes in laboratories, if you wouldn't close your eyes to reality and flee to your imaginary world ruled by your imaginary boss, you would know that. Just like you would know that we have found countless undeniable evidence for evolution for many forms of life, espeially the humans.

The problem with you believers is that you well.. BELIEVE yet claim to KNOW something. You are afraid to rot away and be forgotte, and even more you are afraid that the ultimate authority, which you apply as reason for EVERYTHING, as the cause and end of anything... will punish you if you don't join his fanclub? Really?!?!?! thats all he wants? And he wants that now since 1400 years ago although the humans are AT LEAST 100000 years on this planet? With many more gods before yours to appear? and the argument "they all believed in allah" is bullshit, and you know it, most of them believed in several gods at the same time. Even the preislamic Gods were.. well.. 360? with Al Ilah (or should i simply say Allah) as the alpha male? With a wife and daughters? and many more gods in the pantheon.

You think you know that god "wrote a book" and that he put his laws there for us humans to follow, you think you know how Muhammed did this and that and how he was such a great person and how all he said was said to him by Jibril and blablablabla Do you think an omnipotent being would have to resort to a book written by some ancient people in the past? How ridiculous is that? The all knowing all powerful perfect being, needs some people to write his super laws for others.. using arabic although he knows that only few people will be speaking the language thousands of years in the future?

And how he gave us scientific theories which are so miraculous and surprising to modern scientists? Seriously, that is plain moronic and wishful thinking, nothing else, it is even fact that the science in both Qur'an and the bible is hilarious to modern scientists, at least the ones who do REAL science.

If there were ANY undeniable scientific facts in your holy book, you wouldn't have to wait like 1500 years for some other people to find it out until you can take some incoherent blathering from your book and claim "well look here, if i interpret it and leave the other versions away which are bollocks, it could remotely sound like that!!" It is saddening that you guys stick your nose in that book and think you can find all the truth and knowledge we humans need in there.

A pedophile sheep herder, who copied HUGE parts of the bible, gathers people around him to storm Mekka and kill people there and bully them out of their religion. Marries like 9? 9 women and a 6 year old child among them which he sleeps with when she is 9? If he is inspired by God, and is such a good man, why is it wrong for us today to do that? Would you let your daughter marry some hairy dude when she is 6? and let him sleep with her when she is 9?

How many people were killed because of Muhammed? How many countries were FORCED to accept your stupid book as their one and only law and god's words? MANY, mine is the proof for that.

And Muhammed himself said he was influenced by Satan you can look it up here and compare it to your own holy scriptures, except for the sataic verses which were taken out to hide the truth.

http://tinyurl.com/satanicverses you might not trust this page, you guys like to say it is islamophobic blablabla but they just read your books and compare facts, you can do that too, look In Sura Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53

you will find out it is the truth if you are not ignoring everything by default. So your holy pedophile and violence promoting prophet was influenced by satan himself.. told the Sahabas to tell people to write another 3 goddesses in there, which by his own law would get him executed!! Instead they just changed the Qur'an, what Muhammed confessed himself, go and look it up. Although your theologeans still deny that fact and tell us we are to burn in hell for claiming that.. Well i know.. truth hurts, but sooner or later one should deal with it anyway. So just for the sake of the argument.. lets say that is all true, what tells you that Muhammed wasn't influenced by satan when he did other things?

Oh well, lets ignore that and get to your super morality and divine laws.. Your child, with the brain that your God gave it, decides to think about God and sees flaws about the concept that it is forced to accept, right from birth, some kids yell "ALLAH IS THE GREATEST" as the first thing they ever say, i know what i am talking about my friend, i live in an islamic country myself, a country FORCED into islam, by murdering raping plundering Turks, who came to promote your "peaceful religion" by kidnapping our children and training them to opress their own families and extort them kill them rape them and so on.

Anyhow, your child decides to question its belief and what do you do? you beat it up and threaten it with death? well your Qur'an sure supports you to do that, or should i say demands that from you. Just like you are supposed to kill your child if it apostatizes.. So much love from an omnipotent being..

Equity? Sure, your women dress like ninjas, and in meantime you make them train martial arts to defend themselves against other religions, at least our women here do. But her husband may beat her up if she "misbehaves"? And she can't fight back, no matter how arrogant and stupid he is. She has to submit to him because "there has to be a boss in the house and its the man" Sure, sounds really like they are respected and have the same rights. Same rights like... the man can have several women but the wife can have only you? why exactly? let me see what i was told by my imam and by so many religious people.

The man can have many women because he can provide for them? Well let me tell you this, a woman in the past couldn't possibly provide for herself because she was some sort of sex slave forced to take care of the kids and do the chores, so traditionally they were made dependant on the man, who can have other women too, right? Who can beat her up if she "misbehaves" right? Sounds like a lot of love from her God, and trust me, i understand why she doesn't mind, well many of them, her mother, and hers, and hers, and many more mothers before them SUFFERED the same fate, and they thought it is god's will, something written to justify the man having several sex slaves and cheap (wo)man power in a world ruled by man, traditionally justified. Well in my opinion, traditionally wrong is still wrong you know, and you reading from a crappy ancient book and telling me its god's law, doesn't make it right. Oh right.. there are SOOOO many women in the world!!! how many exactly? 4 times more to justify your logic? 3 times more? 2 times at least? cmon.. at least 1.5 times more!! no.. it is maybe 1.1 times more.. so your logic holds no water there, not at all. Is it because there are so many homosexuals in the world? I heard that one too.. well yeah at the same time i heard that there are only MALE homosexuals, and no real lesbians, they only "play that for the camera" or something like that. How ignorant and moronic is that please? So we took all your reasons and think they are ridiculous and that you are mistreating and abusing your women and brainwashing them to think it is their meaning in life.. something that i and many others KNOW is wrong.

Do tell your god to leave your imagination and come to me to prove me wrong! Or even better, tell him to stop sneaking in peoples' imaginations and move his lazy butt to make the world a better place!!

We looked for your god on the earth, in the water, in the sky.. guess what... we only found him in your heads..

You defend that stupifying book as the word of god without a single proof for god or the Qur'an being anything but a fairy tale... you haven't provided a tiny piece of evidence for it being the word of god, yet you you dare to take that stupid book and run around the world killing people telling them they deserve to die and rot in hell foreverandeverandever if they don't submit to your idiotic teachings blindly and take all you say for granted based on some ancient fairy tale full of incoherent bullshit, claiming it is inspired by an attention seeking psychopath throwing tantrums every once in a while, who is hiding from us but all he wants is us to love him unconditionally.. Please wake up guys!!! On top of that, you take yourself the freedom to say that ALL other religions, even the ones much older than you, many of which you bullied out of existence, you say they are all delusional and that their books are full of crap and they just enslave people to do what they want and that what they say is illogical, idiotic and far from reality?? Some Islam expert said it himself in the Deen Show and i heard it many times before "all religions are made by slave drivers and inhumane people to force others into obedience, threatening them with hell and whatnot although they are wrong or just lying".

JUST WOW!! Can you for a second analyze yourselves and see that that is exactly what YOU are doing? Can you even CONSIDER that you are wrong?

And what is the meaning of a eternal punishment if people never get to correct their "mistakes" meaning that they have no benefit from learning their lesson?!?! And for crying out loud, when will you realize that you have ABSOLUTELY no proof for god, you have 0 proof for anything your holy book claims about miracles, god's work and whatever other things you CHERRY PICK and interpret from your bestselling fairy tale, you are believing merely because people brainwashed you to have faith, threatened you to believe, and yes you JUST believe, you don't KNOW it, you are called BELIEVERS and not KNOWERS for a reason.

Sorry for my endless rant but it really drives me mad.. in this scientific and modern world with so many educated and literate people around.. we brainwash our kids and tell them that the scientists are out to deceive them and rob them off their "truth", people who work really hard to gain and spread knowledge... who welcome and embrace ANY critic and suggestions... You reject their teachings because "my book says so and its written by ancient people who said that god told them to write it and that we are too stupid to understand it, especially you because you don't believe it, and I know god because he lives in my head ever since my parents put him in there before i could even talk or try to understand what the heck they were telling me".

Now my friend, get a grip on reality and try to understand, the evolution is not just a stupid theory of some idiots who try to make fun of god, it is a scientific fact and the sooner you learn to open your eyes to reason and reality, the less problems we will have on this planet, the best proof is in your own body, or do you think things like the appendix were put in there by god to test your faith? Now REALLY?

sir, you are very right.. it is a war between logic VS belief. they believe.. i think..

Oh right.. almost forgot this. Who in that imaginary place where you tell us we will go when we die (hell) told you we are not evolving anymore? Do you want your kid to have wings or something like that? It took a stupid bacterium like 4 billion years to turn into complex living forms like the humans, complex my ass actually.. we are so imperfect and full of mistakes that it hurts.. it hurts my underdeveloped brain that we even THINK that some perfect omnipotent being created us to be such bafoons that we are..

It took millions of years to lose some hair and walk upright and lose a tail and such things.. how about we give it some more time?

James said: "Evolution is a joke. Do you seriously believe that humans evolved from monkeys?"

^^^ Idiot creationist Christian up here. Someone who doesn't know what evolution is, learned Evolution from an ignorant OPINION of another Creationist, and here, having the guts to talk about it.

Look, James, bub, if you never took legitimate biology Classes from a real science teacher, best keep your mouth shut or stupidity flies.

1.) Man did not evolved from monkeys, James, you dumb moron.

Homo Sapiens have a common ancestor with lower Primates. That's how you say it. Observed, tested, proven.

2.) And what makes you think the universe is a "product of mere chance"? Of course, Earth may or may not have been to what it is now if the sun was not born, but to say it's a "mere chance" is misleading. There are constant forces that governs the laws of physics, and when these constants are in the right amount, in the right pairing, and at the right time, it makes things happen.

The thing is, you silly religious people just attribute the wonders of the Natural world and Quantum Energies to your silly little fairy tale books' (Bible, Quran) character called "god"----but really, the Energy constant doesn't really care how much you pray for limbs to grow back or cure your grandmother. It's just going to do it's thing destroying and creating stuff in the Universe, for a very long time. Oh, and it never created a heaven or hell. Both are fictitious destinations.

uhm.. just to add something, Ei is actually AY .. read Ei on bosnian >_> rabat ʼAṯirat yammi, 'Lady Athirat of the Sea' also called 'She who treads on the sea',

She is/was the wife of El or Baal and also called Asherah well anyhow short version, Yahweh got a divorce, kicked her out or ate her or whatever, took a new name and became the sole master of the universe :P just like Allah did to Ningal when he booted all other gods out

Dear Muslims, your God is a bully just like Yahweh, but then again you say its the same God so that shouldn't be a surprise

Dear Linda, I just read most of your comments and you are really knowledgable, I'm actually impressed. As your answers are all a maybe concepts then I'll give you a similar one. In the Quran it's mentioned that there was a civilization under the dead sea, Allah got mad at that area and flipped an entire sea on that city which still exists in the bottom of the dead sea, and no human can dive there cuz of the density. No human is match for god's rage. Tuwra and bible were edited, Allah pro used that the Quran will never be edited and till nowadays we read it the same way people did 1500 years ago. And there are a lot of non Muslim and non Arab people that actually cried from listening to it. The explanation was it was too beautiful and touched their hearts. If your so up tight about facts, then how are you gonna understand the smallest things such as the human soul ???????

Linda, I'm sorry that the Muslim community here on this Board is throwing such insults to you. It's a constant with religious people, when they have nothing to say or rebuttale against the facts and arguments you have offered against their religious texts, they either insult you, or throw (unnecessary and ineffective) guilt trips like "you're being ungrateful to your 'creator".

========================= PS:, and by the way, there was this question on the top discussions that said "I'm asking how did Muhammad (SAW) know these things when people never get to set out of the desert?"

Linda just explained how information was handed down orally by tradition - I doubt you even bothered to understand every word she said.

...and what makes you think people during those times absolutely "never went out of the desert"?

Religious texts (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) are just full of exaggerations and most common sense ideas and knowledge that are actually not unique to just one (your) culture (even Jesus' "golden rule" was pre-dated by the Babylonian Talmud and the Mahabarata by thousands of years).

your gods did not create nor inspired your religions. It was men that created your God, gods, and Allah.

they converted from "scientism" to islam? if they started believing after reading some book, that doesn't add to their credibility and if they converted from one religion to another after reading some old book.. well same thing

whatever religion they belonged to before and whatever they converted to doesn't prove that any of the stuff repeatedly rubbed into our noses makes much sense just because they close their ears and eyes to arguments and logic and interpret what they read the way they need it

the worst of all are the 0815 believers who just take the teachings from other people without making own research i remember a turkish friend trying to convince me that the original Qur'an was a book written by the hand of Allah with human blood on human skin dropped from sky to mohammed and kept in Mekka now. I was pretty perplexed about that especially because proof enough for him was that some demented old uncle of his told him so and whatever i say against it is blasphemic and i should be thankful that he is not like the rest of his family who would beat the crap out of me for not blindly agreeing to their dellusional point of view. Way to prove your point i guess..

Also he was proud to explain to me that he learned pretty much the whole Qur'an on arabic.. because he is only allowed to recite it on arabic.. The only problem about that is that he doesn't understand any of that language but hey nobody is perfect.

Now MY point is that many people interpret what they read or hear about their religion the way they want it.. the way they need it.. when they need it.

Sure the folks in the old days had some knowledge but to call something "miraculous scientific proof" based on implications and jibberish and especially hearsay.. is ridiculous and ignorant. Go make your own research and come back to discuss. also to say "Linda is giving irrelevant answers to justify her staying as an atheist coz she thinks she's cooler that way..." without even reading through her postings or trying to understand it..

makes you simply a moron and doesn't prove anything except that you are a moron.

you're welcome

@James, I already wrote " a bit" under your message few posts above, but i do have some things to add, and i will put them down here at the end of the page.

"You people are just denying the truth."

Are we? the truth is whatever your books and Imams say? But what scientists tell you is a lie because well.. it is not in your book? Who is denying the truth to be able to stick to their obsolete knowledge and idiotic superstitions and ridiculous belief into the imaginary sky daddy?

"The universe is not a product of mere chance. It is WAY to accurate."

Accurate? Intelligently designed? If we are the only ones here.. Why is it bigger than our solar system? We need the shiny dots in the sky to entertain us? Why is so much space wasted? Why are planets colliding and wait.. why are entire galaxies colliding? Why is EVERYTHING so hostile to life? Why is there so much destruction just here on the earth? Why are there so many mutations and mistakes in the living beings? Why are there so many diseases? Why do I break my arm when I fall down 10 feet? Why do I bleed when I cut myself a tiny little bit? Intelligent my ass.. this is very stupid and random, life is the cry in the darkness, surviving against all odds. But it has nothing to do with your imaginary friend. It took the human billions of years to walk on 2 legs and perceive the world as we do and think the way we do, your god should have been able to do that within 0 time if he is omnipotent, he would have made us MUCH better if he is omni-benevolent... and would not bring so much intolerance and hatred to the world. All the religions are an illusion, the religious people are what is real Islam is an illusion, everybody takes as much as they want or as much as they are forced to take from the religion, but muslims are real, hatred is real, people raping and killing others for not submitting to their stinking pile of sh!t as "truth" and "divine laws" is reality, people killing their children if they apostatize is reality, women being modern slaves is reality, wars are reality, fundamentalists and extremists and terrorists are reality, your "peaceful" religion is a lie and an illusion, not more than that, just like all other religions.

"And just because some muslims claim that the Quran was written by people doesn't mean that's true."

Really so you sucked your own "truth" out of your fingers? Caliph Abu Bakr lied? Little Aisha's idiot father? Umar and his daughter who are to blame for your religion lied? It was actually God who wrote the book himself? Do you claim that god wrote the book on human skin with human blood like one of my friends back in Germany used to say? Well messed up then I'd say, all the ridiculous mistakes and idiotic laws and pseudo scientific idiocy from an omniscient and omnipotent being? I'd expect a little bit more from him.

" God tested the Jews because he is just and wanted to give them a chance to actually act out before getting angry."

There is nothing to test, if you know everything, you don't need to test it, if you love them, you won't torture them with hunger to make them do something against your utterly moronic laws. Your book is full of crap, and I am willing to bet that deep inside you know it.. but you were brainwashed too much to actually open your eyes and reject that crap and live your life as your own boss, you are too afraid of the threats that you got implanted into your brain, you are too afraid to just die and rot away and probably be forgotten, you want your eternal life and you don't want to risk ending up in such a moronic fruit of imagination like hell, really lame, for a reasonable human being especially in these modern times. Please grow up.. please use your own brain and please realize that you have absolutely NO proof for anything you think is true about your God and your religion.

"Plus why would God have a wife?? The whole concept of reproduction is to prevent human beings and animals fromt going extinct."

Who are you to question his motives? I thought you are too stupid to understand God? So what gives you the right to think in his stead? Fact is Al Ilah aka Sin, Suen, Nanna, Asimbabbar etc AKA ALLAH had a wife, Ningal, and he had daughters, and fact is it was even written in the Qur'an that they are to be worshipped, you can deny it, but it won't make it less true. Denial is what is making things worse instead of better, denial and blind obedience to authority and idiotic inhumane behavior is what made the world a horrible place, a tragedy happened to humanity in form of religions.

"The pagan arabs worshipped those three "daughters of Allah" and thought of them as intermediateries between them and God. God sent those verses down to prove them wrong."

You know that because you were there? God sent nothing, period. God didn't do sh!t because God doesn't exist, you are free to prove me wrong, even better, ask your god to prove me wrong. I am waiting.

What do we have as proof for God in Islam?

3) Pretty poetry "oh nobody can write such a perfect *cough*BULLSHIT*cough* book" Why would we? I have better things to do..

And where is it perfect and reliable?

What was man created from?

Water And He it is Who hath created man from water... 25:54

Allah hath created every animal of water. 24:45

A Clot In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot. 96:1-2

Clay or Mud He it is Who hath created you from clay. 6:2

We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered.... 15:26

He began the creation of man from clay. 32:7

When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire. 38:71

He created man of clay like the potter's. 55:14

Dust He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. 3:59

And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! 30:20

Allah created you from dust.... 35:11

A drop of fluid He hath created man from a drop of fluid. 16:4

Nothing Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught? 19:67

That should be enough.. God doesn't seem to remember what he made us of haha. And see how Allah refers to himself as "we" every now and then? I guess the "oneness" of god ISN'T very pronounced in the Wur'an like our Muslims keep suggesting.

So much for the perfect poetry

2)"So many people believe it so it must be true!!"

Then I should worship Santa and aliens and Christianity sure has a huge advantage there... just because you believe something doesn't mean its true.

3) Pseudo scientific facts in the Qur'an?

Well yes, although you deny that people back then thought and wrote down that the earth is flat.. and that mountains stop earthquakes? (haha).

That the sun has a resting point in some murky or hot waters or whatever.. sure.. that does make perfect sense? Sun is rising? yeah, sure, because the earth is flat and the sun is moving above the plate and rests in the water or whatever..

The Qur'an has other errors of nature, where 51:49, says of life in creation, "And of everything we have created pairs that ye may reflect" (see also 43:12; 50:7). So for all animals they are created in pairs. This is an obvious denial of the fact that numerous species produce asexually, not in pairs.

The Qur'an 37:143-144 also talks of how the prophet Jonah was swallowed by the fish, this god in the Qur'an says, "Had it not been that he repented and glorified Allah, he would certainly have remained inside the fish till the day of resurrection." We know from scientific, biological studies, that the fish (had it not vomited him up) would have digested Jonah, which would have seen him dead and defecated out of the fish. As for the fish, long before the day of resurrection it would have been well and truly dead and rotted away.

The Qur'an also contains scientific anachronisms of longevity. The Qur'an 18:25 tells the story of some men who slept in a cave for 309 years. Why they did not die very soon due to dehydration and lack of sunlight is not explained. (GODDIDIT is very convenient as the answer for EVERYTHING, but Hitchens' Razor suggests that assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and I couldn't agree more)

The Qur'an has many genetic myths about how humans are born, etc. The Qur'an 86:6-7 says that semen comes from between a man's backbone and ribs. We know today from biology studies that semen comes from the male genitalia, so once again, a very inaccurate statement coming from the Qur'an.

In the Hadith, Muhammad was given a revelation from the angel Gabriel (aka Jibril) as to why a child resembles the father sometimes, and other times the mother. The angel told him that it depends on which parent reaches their sexual climax first during conception (Bukhari 4:546). This has been disproved by genetics.

The Qur'an also tells us that the prophet Jesus was created from dust (3:59) in Mary's womb (19:20-23). Why she did not get tuberculosis with the dust in her body seems even more miraculous.

According to the instruction given in Quran 4.11, 12 and 176, if a man dies and leaves behind a wife, three daughters and his two parents, His wife's share of his inheritance is 1/8. (In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth) His daughters would receive 2/3 (if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;) and his parents each will get 1/6 of his inheritance. (For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children;) When you add all these fractions the sum is more than the total of inheritance. Wife1/8 = 3/24 Daughters 2/3 = 16/24 Father 1/6 = 4/24 Mother1/6 = 4/24 Total = 27/24.

makes 112.5% instead of 100%, they didn't even get their math right. I know, you can find THE perfect explanation for that crap but 43:3 says it is perfectly understandable, especially to arabic speaking people which it definitely isn't, so another fail for Qur'an and its science.

Since you will just ignore what I wrote or try to use your imagination to justify this steaming pile of poo, I think I can leave the rest away.. I have better things to do.

But let us see what we have as a reason to submit to your god and follow some ancient laws and moronic teachings:

1. "Look how beautiful the poetry of the Koran is." (appeal to art) busted 2. "Islam has grown and so it must be true." (appeal to popularity) busted (would make me Christian if anything) 3. "There's scientific knowledge in the Koran that Muhammad couldn't have known." ultra busted!! There is so much that your book didn't even mention that was well known to humans even thousands of years BEFORE your goat herder stole half the bible to create his own super religion, and what he wrote is utterly idiotic for the most part, you just have to pull your head out of your butt and read all the crap in there to see the TRUTH jumping in your face.

4)Incoherent blathering stuffed into some old book and people forced to believe it.. by violence, even murder.. empty promises of an eternal life and ridiculous threats that they will suffer unimaginable pain for all eternity if they don't shut off their brain and just swallow the load of crap.

Aside from the 4 reasons.. do you have anything else?

Well actually, save your breath, your stupid book says I can't even believe you.

"Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment." baqarah 6-7(2:6,7) bring it on sky daddy!!

"And We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And when you mention your Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn back in aversion." Isra 46.(17:46) Sorry sky daddy, the brain you gave me says it is too ridiculous to believe, do prove me wrong please.

"And if we had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me will come into effect [that] "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and "people all together.(32:13) Awesome!!! I get to spend eternity with all the free thinkers and most hot chicks in one place and bible and Qur'an nerds go to hump their virgins up there, can't wait!!

Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 456

"... and I looked into the (hell) Fire and found that the majority of its dwellers were women"

I am done here, you have fun in your imaginary world my friend.

By the way, happy Bayram or Eid or however it is called in your part of the world.

Jayhennem makes some great points here, as have Linda and others. I bought a Quran around the time of 9/11 when there was so much "arab bashing" going on and I wanted to see what it said for myself. I watched a documentary about Muhammad as well I came to the conclusion that it was just like any religion-you can find some little aspects of truth in anything (like Linda pointed out about the accuracy in the Quran about the sea, which people such as Aristotle already had knowledge of)-but that doesn't excuse the ignoring of the glaring inaccuracies. It is awesome to see people from all over the world (from Bosnia to Austin, Tx) writing to each other, but at the same time it is so sad and disgusting to see how religion acts as a poison on human realtions-that is what it does best. There was an earlier post where someone said they would rather be around a "fundamentalist religious" person than a "fundamentalist atheist"-good luck with that-last time I checked it was not an atheist bombing a gay bar, abortion clinic, or killing their daughter because she didn't want to wear a tarp over her head. And by the way, the right wing christians would have the women in America wrapped in a tarp if they could get away with it-religion is for control freaks worldwide. It's also really funny (yet sick) to hear someone talk about the "tormenting fire" and then mention "heaven"; or how gawd gets so "angry" he dumps an entire sea on a town. If gawd is so great, and we are like ants to him, why does he act like a spoiled three year old child? is god bipolar and subject to extreme mood swings? If a parent told a child they loved them, but fi the child "defied" them in some way they set them on fire, they would be put in prison (as they should). That is abuse, not love. A killer god is not for me, no matter what name you call him.

ya quran does not say that so that hadith is weak as god will judge only who goes to hell or heaven so stop spreading bul crap

In the Quran it says that one end is salty and the other is sweet because Allah (God) knows all.

From: muslim (Posted Nov 15, 2013 at 3:01 pm)

MUSLIM SAID: "In the Quran it says that one end is salty and the other is sweet because Allah (God) knows all."

LINDA SAID: The discussion From: some guy (Posted Sep 7, 2009 at 1:02 pm) was about:

SOME GUY SAID: "I am an atheist, but I am confused about something. The Quran states that the Red Sea, is actually split into two parts (salty and not salty). How is that possible? It wasn't known back then. I'd love to hear an explanation."

LINDA SAID: The discussion about Muslim's claim that the verses 55:19-20 are proof of the scientific miracle of the Qur'an. Was proven false. And your retort "In the Quran it says that one end is salty and the other is sweet because Allah (God) knows all."does not address the actual argument. The information I give answers your argument and the fact that it was known long before Muhammad was around. The Greeks knew.

Muslims claim that the verses 55:19-20 are proof of the scientific miracle of the Qur'an "He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through."

Aristotle lived in 350 BC or 1000 years before Muhammad. A thousand years before Muhammad Aristotle wrote: "The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind."

It is clear that at the time of Aristotle, people knew that waters of different density and salinity do not mix. Obviously the sailors navigating in that sea must have noticed the difference of color between the waters.

It is something that was known 1000 years before Muhammad and you know how people spread rumors. Muhammad traveled with caravans to the Yemen and to Syria. Ancient Greek travel and commerce included Syria, Persia, Arabia, and Egypt. Also it seems that Muslims do not understand the phenomenon at all. The sill of Gibraltar, the barrier that separates the Atlantic from Mediterranean is not responsible for not letting the two waters to mix. The waters do not mix because of the difference in their density, salinity and temperature. Furthermore the separation of these waters are not permanent. The waters of various densities, salinity and temperatures eventually mix.

I could present vast amounts of information about how the Qur'an was written but it would do about as much good as telling it to a brainwashed hillbilly fundamentalists. There are xian fundamentalists who try to use the Qu'ran to prove their Biblical nonsense and I can debunk anything they try to pull out of their ass from the Bible, Qur'an or the Torah or you can just name it. You name a nut case story and I've been there.

Every country has their mirror images of our wing-nut fundamentalists. They all believe that their holy books reveal secrets, miracle and weird science. It is a common belief amongst Muslims that the Qur'an reveals many miracles and actual science. When our xian fundies try to pawn their Biblical pseudo science off as real science they often try to use the Qur'an for corroboration, even though they do not accept Islam. Some Right Wing xians find science in the Qur'an to please the oil rich Saudi princes.

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place. El-Kahf-29

Note that this thread contains messages that are not shown because they are pending approval. Try back later.

Follow us on:

twitter facebook meetup

blip.tv ustream.tv

ACA members! It's time to renew your ACA membership. You can do so online if you log in and then click here or check your e-mail for alternate instructions. Thanks for supporting the ACA.

The after-the-show meetup after the Atheist Experience TV Show has moved to El Arroyo, 1624 W 5th St.