A friend sent me a picture of a sign/message board in front of a Baptist church near her. It said: "God doesn't belive in atheists therefore atheists don't exist."

Damn, I don't exist but I was so sure that I did (because I thought I did).

What am I to do now ? Please help.

This isn't theist logic.

Carin: is isn't ?

Hmmmm ... they made a logical proposition in the form of: A is true, therefore but must also be true. That seems like a shot at logic to me.

Not theists ? I think the Baptists would disagree.

Thus I see it as fulfilling both requirements: logic postulated by theists.

Why do you disagree ? Do I really exist ?

I'm a theist and that's not my logic.

Actually this is atheistic logic, the baptist are just mimmicking the fallacious logic atheist use in their argument against God. Although I would have to say, even in using such thing as "logic" the atheist must presuppose the Christian worldview because only in a Christian worldview can you have such a thing as "logic." How ironic the atheist finds this logic flawed because its the same logic atheist use in ther argument against God...goes something like this: Atheist: "I don't believe in God, therefore He doesn't exist." That's basically every atheistic argument I have ever heard. But why believe that?

"[...] only in a Christian worldview can you have such a thing as "logic." "

Let me fix that for you:

"[...] only in a Christian worldview can you have such a thing as CRACKPOT FUNDIE NUTJOB "logic." "

-fixed- You're welcome.

It's a good thing that you've put the word logic in quotation marks, already implying that you have no idea, what you are talking about.

There might be logic in it, but only if you bendover backwards to make sense of the insanity found in your doctrine.

The normal logic, that sane and rational people would use to determine whether something is TRUE or just the by-product of your desperate need to cure your daddy-issues with the concept of a "heavenly father".

For everyday purposes, it is better to go with the first option. At least it is testable, repeatable and delivers reliable answers. Something that your brainwash-crackpot non-answers apparently can't provide.

Come back when your magical skyfairy decides to stop hiding. Because as long as it refuses to make itself testable or measurable, your guess is as good as that of any other nutjob.

Let me rephrase a couple of my sentences for you:

The normal logic (used by sane and rational people to determine whether something is TRUE or just the by-product of your desperate need to cure your daddy-issues with the concept of a "heavenly father") isn't even remotely connected to your religion.

Do I say that you are irrational and insane? No. You're probably just as good at determining what is likely to be true as the next person.

It's just that you have been brainwashed to make all kinds of excuses for your dogma, because it would be that much more painful to admit that you have been lied to for the biggest portion of your life.

Lied by clergymen, or by people you usually trust, like your family and friends. They DIDN'T lie to you on purpose. Most of them don't think of it as being a lie or brainwash.

"For everyday purposes, it is better to go with the first option" -> I was referrng to the one we use in science to determine the truth.

"At least it is testable, repeatable and delivers reliable answers. Something that your brainwash-crackpot non-answers apparently can't provide. "

And we don't only use Critical Rationalism in Science. You use it yourself!

You are sceptical with regards to all kinds of things. Otherwise you would give all magical claims equal value. You would accept Islam, Hinduism and Norse Mythology just as much as Christianity. But apparently, you don't.

If you see why you reject all the other religions, you'll see why Atheists reject yours (along with all the others).

None of those concepts/religions are convincing - especially since they all use only a single, slightly modified version of the same claims and assertions - while never providing any PROOF or EVIDENCE.

But for some reason, you chose to see the doctrine that you have been brought-up/indoctrinated with as the only true one.

This not the logical way to go about things. This is arbitrary and merely based on your own emotional-investment in your preconceived notions.

You seem to have a problem with being wrong. But why? Sure, it hurts like a mother-fucker, thanks to our own vanity as a species and our fragile egos. No one likes to be wrong, because they fear that they might be ridiculed or even abandoned.

But there's another component to it: You'll most likely only get ridiculed if you stick to your guns, even though the available evidence or even simple (normal) logic refutes your position.

Imagine this:

Do you think people would ridicule you if you said "I was wrong. I have made the wrong assumptions and I couldn't back them up. I was really wrong."...?

Probably not! I personally have a ton of respect for people who are able to realize that they have made the wrong assumptions or jumped to conclusions. It's honest, elegant and shows maturity.

I personally admit openly when I made a mistake - maybe because I misread something or truly said something that wasn't really backed up by science.

It only stings for a moment, when you admit mistakes. But after that initial sting, it feels like you have been set free (romantic, I know).

I have also found that admitting mistakes is usually the best catalyst, if your goal is to become more knowledgable. It really boosts your perception and makes you reach whole new levels of understanding, by removing biases.

(Look up "confirmation bias", if you want to learn about a pretty common, yet subconcious bias)

I always feel the urge to counter stubborness and willful ignorance with insults and mocking, because that's usually what will lead people to reconsider their views. It pushes them out of their comfort zone. And leaving your comfort zone is what enables you to broaden your horizon. That might be scary to some. To me, it is something that is exciting, instead of frightening.

But then I also feel sadness and pity that people can be so invested in something that can be potentially harmful to them - and even harmful to their own dignity.

Related: Why do religious people - christians, in that case - try to avoid this little amount of ego-pinching pain, when their whole doctrine is based on the assumption that they are trash in the eyes of god, that they sinners and in desperate need of redemption?

You would assume that people, who have to slide around on their knees, begging for forgiveness for being just the way their gad has created them would be used to those sorts of feelings and thus be a bit more humble than the rest of the population. odd.

But apparently, an atheist telling you that you might be wrong and that you could expand your horizon by geeting rid of something we call "magical thinking" is THAT much more insulting than a god, who tells you that you are scum and that you can't find happyness unless you kiss his ass.

Pretty skewed standards, if you ask me...

Answerer: "I always feel the urge to counter stubbornness and willful ignorance with insults and mocking…"

I think that only serves to polarize people. Atheists and Christians stand on both sides of the divide hurling insults at one another, all the while becoming more entrenched. I think Steven Covey may have been on to something when he suggested, "Seek first to understand. Then be understood."

Yes. This is why I said that I only feel the urge.

Sometimes I give in, sometimes I don't. It's a matter of what I consider to be effective in that particular moment.

Sometimes you have to mock people until they finally see that what they believe is bullshit. And sometimes you can appeal to their rationality.

And I think I actually understand the christian world-view. It gives them "hope" and serves as good cop out when "standing on your own two feet" and "taking responsibility" become to hard.

I am familiar with Covey's works. And on a sidenote: You should suggest your little platitude to theists, who never look beyond their own dogma. Those are the ones who are in need of "understanding" something.

In many cases, I know more about their religion than they do. And that should tell you something...

"Sometimes you have to mock people until they finally see that what they believe is bullshit."

Any evidence that this ever works? Trust me, I empathize with you here. I have long used humor to point out the absurdities of opposing views. My own, personal, anecdotal experience has proven this ineffective. Perhaps you are better at it.

"And I think I actually understand the christian world-view."

I will not be Huizi and claim, "You're not a fish -- how do you know what fish enjoy?" I would, however, encourage you to question yourself. It is easy to dismiss believers as naïve children who believe out of fear and ignorance. But, is that true or is it our own mind's way of handling cognitive dissonance.

"You should suggest your little platitude to theists..."

Honestly, I do not expect you or theists or anyone else, for that matter, to be the first to try and understand. I can only affect change in myself and see what happens when I do. But I believe I am already on the same side of this topic with you in that I believe the existence of any sort of deity to be highly unlikely. Therefore, I try to better understand the opposing side.

"In many cases, I know more about their religion than they do. And that should tell you something..."

It certainly suggests that you are looking in the wrong place to understand why they believe what they believe. If they are less educated about their own religion than you, then it stands to reason their belief does not come from that understanding. Again it seems you want to dismiss them for ignorance. Surely you would admit there are some that are well educated on their beliefs that still believe. What about them? Could there be some other reason that is more fundamental? According to Wikipedia, there are approximately 2.2 billion Christians. Are they all ignorant children?