When I speak to believers in scriptural and institutionalized religion, I often find myself faced with uncorroborated rhetoric and circular argumentation. Let's take an example. Those who believe in the Judeo-Christian scriptures will invariably say, "I believe (in the Bible or Jesus...) … because … I believe (in the Bible or Jesus ...)". So just what value do these scriptures have as an objective reference for History and/or Science or anything else for that matter? If they have none, then their authenticity and their authority on matters of the knowledge of god are nil.

I have a good answer taken from a new E-book just out this month, but I would like to hear (or read) your take on this first.

Nope no value whatsoever, that bit of valuable morality and correct knowledge is no reason to accept the whole thing.. more the opposite, We collected so much more knowledge after the bible was written, nothing in there was unknown to (wo)man even before, i see no reason to use it as a source for knowledge and much less for your moral compass. in the general discussions here i wrote about the qur'an in the "something in the qur'an"- topic and on the page i will link down there i talked a bit more for the bible, so i won't go into the detail here.. However it is a topic about the bible as evidence and if it matters.

http://tinyurl.com/thinkyourself

few postings below that one is something i copied from a conversation between a christian and some atheists, showing what some people see when they read the bible.. quite disturbing indeed.. how he thinks about wars diseases violence.. and especially about other people.. that english is Jesus' language and it is the grace of God that we heathens are allowed to use it.. that we would be lucky if god washes us away from the earth with disasters etc etc etc.. i even only copied a SMALL part of the conversation.. and left out the many christians who rushed in to support him.. It would not shock me if he was alone with that opinion but truth is there are many who get a similar picture about the world because of the things they read in the bible.. And pretty much all religious people are intolerant of other people in one form or another..

The funniest part (in form of black humor) was this:

"Show me where the big bang THEORY or THEORY of evolution are talked about in the Bible and we can have a debate. Otherwise, your point is moot. Good day."

Apparently that is all some people accept..

Dear Jayhennem,

Thanks for your post and interesting link.

I blogged with a Christian who insisted that the parable of the mustard seed was a metaphor for the universe just before the Big Bang. As though the Bible had all the information we need to explain the universe, if only we could read between the lines. Talk about twisting myth to fit reality.

Please visit again. Cheers.

It is rather funny, but also very sad that people are so stubborn in their determination to force some scientific truth out of words meant to be taken figuratively. Like you sure know (example few posts above) some people ignore whatever you show them, if it isn't mentioned in their holy fairy tale.

Fact is, whoever wrote the bible had 0 clue about the Big Bang, and if your Christian friend had any clue about the theory he would know that there is nothing before the Bang/inflation, there is no time before the begin of time.. at least according to the theory, but if they would have the "ultimate truth" they wouldn't have to resort to scientific discoveries and theories to make their point, and if in the bible (or qur'an or elsewhere) they had been talking about the big bang, believers wouldn't have had to wait for thousands of years until somebody else comes up with it.. after months and years of hard work they dare to give credit to some murdering slave driving pedophiles (aka God's early followers), because they learned to twist and adjust and interpret their blathering to apply it to everything in the world and claim "GODDIDIT - GODSAIDIT". They read between non-existent lines.. and they read between the lines because if they would read their incoherent crap the way a rationally thinking brain reads it, the truth would jump in their face, the sad truth that they are living a lie and that they took some idiotic horrific fairy tales to base their way of life and their moral code on.. that they read "made up history" and let it pervert their picture of reality. Fact is, the scientific (and other) errors in their holy fairy tales are so numerous and ridiculous and obvious.. that it is really difficult to not see them.. they didn't even get the simple math right in many cases (i will spare you the examples), their scientific "truths" are plain idiotic, ancient superstition and a pathetic attempt to explain the world, based on a selection of even older books (in meantime we know they stole from pre-christian religions and made their own religion, just like the muslims did) lies, wishful thinking and ridiculous crap that is too stupid to be taken for anything but a bad joke, well actually a very cruel and clever way to enslave and scare people into blind submission.. even thousands of years in the future, I wonder if they were aware of that. There are still people around in these modern times who believe that the world is flat, they won't take reality into consideration, their book said so! Really true, but i guess you know that. Others say "well that is ridiculous, but the earth is the center of the universe!!!" Others say "no they got it wrong but... god flooded the earth and it is only 5000-10000 years old!!". And so on.. and so on.. and so on. How can i make a difference between real history and idiotic made up tales and fables? Well i don't need them, but how can they make a difference between poetry and stupid stories (what some theists admit in some cases) and the binding and most valuable words of God? Where is something made up and where is it historic fact? That is where brainwashing comes in and faith.. But i wonder, how do they make a difference?

Jesus curses a fig tree because he didn't get a fig? Jesus the son of God resurrected to strike fear into the hearts of the infidels but the other thousands of people who rose from the dead at the same time in Jerusalem.. oh well that is just a story? Dude spends 3 days inside a fish? God hangeth the world upon nothing??? Where tf are we hanging? Israelites have to cover up their feces outside their encampment, because Almighty God was inclined to stroll around at night? The firmament Is a solid roof over the world held by pillars? Tower of Babel as an attempt to reach God and he being so concerned as to change their languages so they wouldn't be able to communicate as the explanation for why people have different languages..? Rainbows are a sign of god that he won't flood us anymore? Yet he floods bit by bit every once in a while.. The devil trying to get God to worship him by bribing him with the earth? "I have given thee cows dung for mans dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith." just wtf is this? "Thou shall not pimp your outfit with 2 different materials". EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek. DT 25:19 "... you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget." Pretty difficult now that his remembrance is permanently preserved in the Bible...

What i find very funny.. the Garden of Eden must still be on earth, guarded by angels with fiery swords. And the serpent must still be crawling around on the ground eating dust.

As we all know this is just a tiny part of all the ridiculous stories.. so how can i damage my brain enough to take the same book and look for science and history in there? I will gladly repeat this over and over again.. a halfway bright 10 year old has the valuable teachings from the bible qur'an torah etc and much more than that, yet we tell them to stop believing in Santa, pixies, Rumpelstilskin etc.. so why not God too? Why do we let them cause psychological damage with those books? Their "holy" piles of toilet paper should be put in museums alongside relics from cavemen and other things we have no real use for. Whatever their books may have to offer is written in other books, was written in other books even before their books were written, they didn't even get teachings from thousands of years before in there, ignored and even demonized medicine and accurate teachings but instead they made up things and blamed diseases on witchcraft and demons.. Don't you think we wasted enough time studying their books and looking for anything of real value for humanity in there? They should rather close their books and read other books to get a grip on reality, it is really about time.

Dear Jayhennem,

Thanks for the post, I couldn't agree more. I realize that this is a broad subject. I want to quote a poem from a book called Religion Proof that may help to summarize the main issues in this seed. I hope the format keeps its shape and that it will not appear too long.

Holy Hearsay (Ballad)

Is there a quantum theory Through which a god speaks straightaway From a distant infinity To any man on Earth today? How dare some give His attributes, Proclaiming things no one can see? "He has a beard and wears some boots". This is really pure fantasy.

Religions books are all empty Of anything that would make sense. Is there even one deity? We are left sitting on the fence. These scriptures are a false pretense Without some authenticity And legends are a poor defense. Scriptures have no validity.

Nowhere will you find in scriptures But one verifiable date, No chronological measures, No facts that would help validate. No credentials for their authors, Writing decades after Christ's death, No birthdates, mothers or fathers, Could they be precise to one breath?

The words of Jesus are a quiz, Who could have known what he said then, When in Gethsemane he is, All were asleep even his men?

Compared to my average posts it is pretty short. :) Well makes a lot of sense to me.. and rationally thinking people will sure agree.. But such things enter the head of a convinced theist, make a huge loop way around his logical side of the brain, either completely be ignored or shred to pieces in the creative part of the brain which they tend to use the most, to keep enjoying their imaginary world. I hope that makes sense..